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Post by jpen on Jan 14, 2009 18:27:08 GMT -5
You know, I can't believe I did not associate the death of Harry and the dark nightmare with the death of Maddie and David's baby. I guess it is because by this time in the show they had basically shoved all of that and then some under the rug. I will say that I had not forgotten about the death of the baby entirely. The one time it did resurface for me was the first time I saw the episode and when they were in the hospital with Maddie's bump on her noggin. I do remember thinking that it would be very hard to have to come back to the same hospital so soon and thought that they would address their loss more at that point......it was already under that big ol' rug....... Well put, bees--that's exactly what I was trying to convey...thank you!
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Post by italianbluemooner on Jan 14, 2009 18:34:49 GMT -5
[ I just think, if you're going to do an episode about death and mortality, to totally ignore the fact that these two have recently been bereaved in a horrible, tragic way, is pretty irresponsible from a continuity standpoint (and I know, it's a fruitless argument, really, since continuity was NOT a priority that season). They didn't need to reference the baby's death in the car conversation necessarily, but I would've thought it might come up in at least one conversation or scene...even if it was just a look between them (or a look away from each other--as if they were avoiding talking about it). IMO. It was irresponsible indeed, jpen. And about the reference to the baby's death: I would have liked to see that, too. Not necessarily in this particular episode, though. It is my perception that the writers tried desperately to erase our memories of Maddie's pregnancy. Am I the only one?
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Post by beesnbears on Jan 14, 2009 18:39:28 GMT -5
[ It is my perception that the writers tried desperately to erase our memories of Maddie's pregnancy. Am I the only one? You are not alone!
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Post by jpen on Jan 14, 2009 18:46:35 GMT -5
It is my perception that the writers tried desperately to erase our memories of Maddie's pregnancy. Am I the only one? Yes, I think you're right, IBM. That's part of what is so frustrating to me--the whole fourth season was ALL ABOUT the pregnancy, in one way or another, and then, as bees said, they sweep the whole darn thing under the rug and pretend it never happened. Way to tick off your loyal fans, guys! (And they wonder why the share dropped so precipitously...) Still, I think I could've swallowed the sweeping, so to speak, if they could've gotten M & D's relationship right. Agnes nailed it (as usual) in LE... But that's a discussion for another time.
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Post by italianbluemooner on Jan 14, 2009 18:53:28 GMT -5
I will say that I had not forgotten about the death of the baby entirely. The one time it did resurface for me was the first time I saw the episode and when they were in the hospital with Maddie's bump on her noggin. I do remember thinking that it would be very hard to have to come back to the same hospital so soon and thought that they would address their loss more at that point......it was already under that big ol' rug....... Anyone ever feel like in order to really understand Maddie and David that it is sometimes best to just leave out Season 5? Not that there are not some good shows in that season, but it is just to darn confusing!! .....yeah, I know........ My goodness, bees !!! I swear to you I had not read your post yet when I wrote "Am I the only one?" !! And yes, about the hospital: I think the same. We should have been shown more in that scene. But then again, I thought: those who wrote S5 were men. Senseless men. I would bet the house that even only 1 woman in the writing team would've made the difference.
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Post by italianbluemooner on Jan 14, 2009 19:36:34 GMT -5
OK more on the nightmare... - Tomb: I like this line: "you may have qualities and talents that you are not using."I read it as: you can make things work with David, and you can be the warm, sweet, passionate woman you're desperately trying to bury alive. - Widow = may depict fears of your partner's death.Now, I just rewatched the scene at the office where the paramedic asks: "What's the name?", and David says his name. How does Maddie react? She flicks him. Don't you think it's like saying: "Don't you say such things, David! It brings bad luck!" So she does care for his welfare! - Phantom = repressed memories, repressed guilt = the baby's death - Monsters = aspects of one's life found repulsive and ugly.I think those aspects are her iciness and her lack of spontaneity. IMO, she (unconsciously) wants to be like David: easy, daring, able to feel. - Chin/Nose = strength/wisdom Those guys want to bury her... Couldn't it be her built-up facade is destroying her true self? - Priest: Maddie is atheist, yet, IMO, she needs a guide. So the priest. The priest symbolizes chastity and abstinence, too... Well, I guess this girl also needs something else...
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Post by italianbluemooner on Jan 14, 2009 19:45:23 GMT -5
And now just a personal thought:
I love this episode because it shows us Maddie unconsciously wishes to be a different person.
The nightmare is telling her she needs to change. Otherwise she'll lose her balance.
She needs to get rid of her prejudices.
She needs to move on.
And most of all, she has to make up her mind about David.
I just hoped she would learn something from that experience.
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Post by lin212 on Jan 14, 2009 19:53:13 GMT -5
rose and jen, you are so right about the sexual innuendos. IMO, they are the best parts of this episode. And the way David gently brushes Maddie's hair back when she is in the hospital - it is so tender and loving - which brings up another continuity frustration. Only a couple of episodes later (Annie arc), David is spewing venom toward Maddie. Nuts!
rose, I too agree that the opening scene is too childish for S5. The attempt to recreate S1/2 antics just doesn't work. I hate to say it, but Cybill's acting in this scene and the beginning of the next scene is just not convincing to me. Her anger at David and the boys is almost a fake anger. If she is supposed to be outraged by the 976 calls, where are the flashing eyes? Even some of her facial expressions are not those of the sophisticated woman we have come to know. Something is off.
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Post by italianbluemooner on Jan 14, 2009 19:53:59 GMT -5
And on the subject of that shower scene, pretty amazing that the shampoo "geyser" (ahem!) made it through the censors... You know, I think I've watched this episode at least 60-70 times by now, but I still can't believe this scene was not censored! ... Thank God!! ;D
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Post by sinceifell4u on Jan 14, 2009 19:56:07 GMT -5
Wow, ladies! I just finished reading your posts and... GREAT JOB, LADIES!!!! I'll try to reply to some of your brilliant observations! And BTW... sinceifell4u: YOU ROCK, GIRL!! I loved your research about the root chakra! Very pertinent! So, without further delay... But the depression and loss themes are more complex and intriguing, I think. One loss Maddie has suffered is David's presence as a potential or actual romantic partner. In spite of the kiss at the end of "Take My Wife," their relationship does not look like it's going to be rekindled. Maddie may still be conflicted about exactly where she wants it to go, but nonetheless, the fact that they are "pals" is clearly not fulfilling for her. She still loves him, IMO (look at her when he says "It wouldn't be heaven without you"), and misses what they had, as confusing and crazy as it was. I agree, jpen . She loves him, still she doesn't know how to deal with this acknowledgment. Nevertheless, she keeps on refusing the way he is: his beliefs (see the car scene), his attitude at "raising spirits" at the office (well, maybe she's right about that... ), etc etc. In a nutshell: she rejects what SHE wants to be. Explanation: read the meaning of the Grim Reaper in dream analysis..."To see the Grim Reaper in your dream signifies the negative, REJECTED aspects of your personality..." IMO, Maddie is just like us: she feels urges, passions and desires. She can be as spontaneous as David...But she doesn't allow herself to be. So I think there's a battle within her soul. She's split in half. There's a Maddie-businesswoman, whose priorities in life are earning money, making the business flourish, keeping a severe image of herself to the eyes of the world. And then there's a Maddie-wild maneater, who craves to seize David every time she sees him, throw him down to the carpet and...OK let me stop here, my room is getting too hot! ;D In a nutshell: she rejects what SHE wants to be. Explanation: read the meaning of the Grim Reaper in dream analysis..."To see the Grim Reaper in your dream signifies the negative, REJECTED aspects of your personality..." IMO, Maddie is just like us: she feels urges, passions and desires. She can be as spontaneous as David...But she doesn't allow herself to be.Exactly IBM, Maddie is afraid to be the person that she has already evolved into since knowing David. Admitting that David has made her a better person seems to be an aspect that Maddie dare not commit to.., thus she struggles with being free from her self made prison of anxiety, denying her growth in character and personality. Also IBM, thanx for the wonderful applause! ;D
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Post by sinceifell4u on Jan 14, 2009 20:02:18 GMT -5
rose and jen, you are so right about the sexual innuendos. IMO, they are the best parts of this episode. And the way David gently brushes Maddie's hair back when she is in the hospital - it is so tender and loving - which brings up another continuity frustration. Only a couple of episodes later (Annie arc), David is spewing venom toward Maddie. Nuts! rose, I too agree that the opening scene is too childish for S5. The attempt to recreate S1/2 antics just doesn't work. I hate to say it, but Cybill's acting in this scene and the beginning of the next scene is just not convincing to me. Her anger at David and the boys is almost a fake anger. If she is supposed to be outraged by the 976 calls, where are the flashing eyes? Even some of her facial expressions are not those of the sophisticated woman we have come to know. Something is off. Yes, yes and yes....I think that's what makes it one of my absolute favorites... so sexy!
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Post by sinceifell4u on Jan 14, 2009 20:16:23 GMT -5
- Tomb: I like this line: "you may have qualities and talents that you are not using."I read it as: you can make things work with David, and you can be the warm, sweet, passionate woman you're desperately trying to bury alive. - Widow = may depict fears of your partner's death.Now, I just rewatched the scene at the office where the paramedic asks: "What's the name?", and David says his name. How does Maddie react? She flicks him. Don't you think it's like saying: "Don't you say such things, David! It brings bad luck!" So she does care for his welfare! - Phantom = repressed memories, repressed guilt = the baby's death I love this post, the first 3 points especially. Great break down of the "tomb" aspect of the dream. The "widow" aspect definitely transmits Maddie's desire to be with him forever. The "phantom" really makes since, especially when she tells David that maybe it was something she did or could have done differently that would have changed the outcome of losing the baby. Could it be all the stress of her decisions and the negativity felt between her and David that produced the miscarriage? I can see how repressed memories of her actions during that time, leaving and taking David through so many changes, basically created the guilt that she tried so hard not to display.
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Post by sinceifell4u on Jan 14, 2009 20:19:42 GMT -5
And then there's a Maddie-wild maneater, who craves to seize David every time she sees him, throw him down to the carpet and...OK let me stop here, my room is getting too hot! ;D ROFLMAO! OMG IBM you are too much! i love it! And you are so right, Maddie has got all those naughty thoughts too about David, just like he has of her, he shows it , .......she doesnt LOL AND YUP IT'S HOT IN HERE! hehehe Totally agree...and that wild maneater line, priceless...
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Post by beesnbears on Jan 14, 2009 20:51:54 GMT -5
Though this whole discussion on this episode has been enlightening for me, I still think that this is one of those shows that was just for the jokes. I think they needed to fill the episode with some extra minutes and that is why the dream sequence became so long. I just can't imagine that they really put as much thought into Maddie's dream as we have. LOL!! ;D I think we made them PAY!!! IBM----great job!! (insert one of your jumpy dudes right here) ;D
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Post by italianbluemooner on Jan 14, 2009 21:04:39 GMT -5
Though this whole discussion on this episode has been enlightening for me, I still think that this is one of those shows that was just for the jokes. I think they needed to fill the episode with some extra minutes and that is why the dream sequence became so long. I just can't imagine that they really put as much thought into Maddie's dream as we have. LOL!! ;D I think we made them PAY!!! IBM----great job!! (insert one of your jumpy dudes right here) ;D Certainly, bees! THANKS EVERYBODY !!! I hope you all had a good time! I did my best... LOL!! ;D P.S. And yes...We made them eat dirt, we made them eat worms...Maddie run outside! Get us some dirt! Get us some worms!! LOL!!! ;D
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