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Post by italianbluemooner on Nov 20, 2008 15:40:55 GMT -5
The one thing I have a pet peeve about is failing to separate the characters from the people who played them. There was lots of drama and innuendo that circled Moonlighting like vultures, but the bottom line is we are analyzing and discussing the work itself. Sure, stuff happens, but there has to be a reason that this series has stood the test of time and remained bright and fresh. And many of the things discussed here are very pertinent. In my mind it is too easy to brush things off by using the personal, rather than digging into the work itself. Please don't misinterpret this......it's my opinion, and by no means should it affect the discussion. My call out is just that Maddie and David, and Cybill and Bruce are two totally separate pairs of people.....one pair fictional, and one pair very real, and should be considered as such. I totally agree with you, Diane. And might I add that, generally speaking, gossiping about people and their private life not only is a blow below the belt, but also upsets the above-mentioned... How are upset people supposed to do their job to the best of their ability? I despise gossips. I'll never gossip about anyone in my entire life, not even about people I hate. Least of all about people ( 2 in particular ) I love and respect. I think Cybill meant to do it...It's not a casual choice of tone... IMHO. I'm sorry. I'd better make myself clear. What I was trying to say is that I think the writers, the director, or whoever, made Cybill say the line in that tone... I daresay actors are not allowed to pour their private life into their job. That would affect the development of their character... I'm pretty sure the producers wouldn't like it to happen. IMHO.
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Post by italianbluemooner on Nov 20, 2008 16:15:16 GMT -5
Am I the only one who thinks Maddie was flat out lying when she told David it was not his baby??? Diane, it DID come up! I believe bees and I wrote a post or two about it... We were trying to find a solution... By the calculations ( and prestidigitations... ) I made... It all adds up!! It IS David's baby. It could be deduced since "Tracks Of My Tears" . In the light of it, these are my considerations: Either Maddie's doc does not know how to perform his job( that is, his calculations were wrong and HE told Maddie the baby was conceived BEFORE the actual date of conception, i.e. when she slept with Sam, therefore Maddie was sincere when she told David the baby wasn't his ); Or.......... the doc is skilled...told her the date of conception... and Maddie realized it dated back to that amazing month she had spent with David... Therefore SHE decided to lie to David 'cause she didn't want him to change... What do you think, ML fans? I've been racking my brains out FOR DAYS, trying to solve this enigma... IMHO, Maddie did NOT know David was the father (hence, her doc IS ignorant), because I remember that in the final scene of "Maddie Hayes Got Married" (at the hospital, after Terri had given birth to her child ) she told David " I wish with my whole heart that this was your baby inside me "... I think we should start a brand new thread about this dilemma...
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Post by italianbluemooner on Nov 20, 2008 19:08:24 GMT -5
Maddie dreams of David being like him cause i think Maddie has dated men like Pat Boone LOL Well lets think back to her date with that Dr in the pilot BORING ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ LOL I think Maddie thinks the ideal man was supposed to be some hard working, non fun guy ,until she met David. Even Sam was kinda like a Pat Boone type but not that drastic of course LOL Obviously Maddies priorities of Men and Marriage change during her dream cause all of a sudden shes dreaming of the badboy type David and wanting him so badly. This has Maddie walking on the wild side, probably something she never did till David. She definitely is scared of this. *cracks up* Yeah, the doc in the Pilot was the date of her dreams... ;D You're right, Rose35... She's scared of that side of her personality... She's always hidden those urges from herself... Until David, of course! I must confess i can watch this scene up till the part where Maddie says Shes married. i have to take a break it seems and turn it off there still to this day and wait a few minutes before resuming the rest of this episode ,i do that to alot with a few scenes in the An**e storyline too LOL OK you can call me crazy i dont mind. No, you're not crazy... Some scenes really hurt... I'm gonna make a little confession here, too... Every single time I watch the last five minutes of "Lunar Eclipse"... I cry. Luckily, I'm no masochist... So I rarely watch that "episode".
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Post by beesnbears on Nov 21, 2008 10:51:44 GMT -5
I am out of town and don't have time to respond right now, but as far as Maddie telling the Burger King Whopper.............I think she may have been tempted, but I think her "idiot" dr. told her info to lead her to believe it was Sam's.
And things she said:
"How do I tell him he was at the right place at the wrong time"
And where she tells David she loves him in MHGM and that she wishes the baby is his.
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Post by jpen on Nov 21, 2008 16:34:22 GMT -5
I'm with you, bees. I think Maddie's reaction on the train is heartfelt; why would she tell Walter, a total stranger, that David was NOT the father, unless she really believed what she had been told about "sonograms and calendars"?
I agree with Diane that her behavior when she tells David is a bit suspicious, but I always attributed her stuttering, etc. to her discomfort with the situation (i.e., having to come clean to David about her marriage and the baby), rather than avoiding the truth.
Maddie has certainly done a lot of "avoiding" since she took off for Chicago, but IMO, I just don't think her moral compass would allow her to outright lie to David about something so important, and her apology to David at the end of MHGM just confirms that for me.
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Post by diane on Nov 21, 2008 23:12:12 GMT -5
OK...this is going to be kind of hard to explain, because I promised you my soliloquoy and didn't deliver yet.....but I really do think that Maddie lied.
But I don't think she lied to hurt David, but in her very confused state of mind, I think she felt that she could not make it work with David, because she would try too hard to change him. But she knew that if David thought he was the father, retreating from the situation would be absolutely impossible for him. So, in a convoluted way, she was showing how much she loved him.....just the way he is.......by lying to him about the baby.
I think this is kind of what the beginning of the episode is about, and it also foreshadows that horrid "white stuff in your coffee" scene that is yet to come.
Make sense? Not trying to persuade anybody to agree, just saying I might not be totally off my rocker!
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Post by beesnbears on Nov 22, 2008 23:33:04 GMT -5
.......... But I don't think she lied to hurt David, but in her very confused state of mind, I think she felt that she could not make it work with David, because she would try too hard to change him. But she knew that if David thought he was the father, retreating from the situation would be absolutely impossible for him. So, in a convoluted way, she was showing how much she loved him.....just the way he is.......by lying to him about the baby. I agree with part of what diane is saying. I believe that she was very afraid that David would try to reinvent himself for her and with one of those revelations I have been talking about she now has half way admitted to herself that she loves him and she loves all those things about him that she always said she hated. I never thought she would try to change him. I think she put the Walter Bishop roadblock in David's way because of how much she loved him. I don't think she did this to hurt David. She just panicked big time and started the Avoidance game with a big 'ol capital "A"!! I agree with jpen.......the discomfort we see in Maddie's demeanor is her uneasiness with the whole situation....and Cybill makes us feel REALLY uncomfortable by the way she played it. It just got really weird when she started acting like she could not understand why David could not say something nice.
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Post by italianbluemooner on Nov 23, 2008 17:36:49 GMT -5
I think Maddie's reaction on the train is heartfelt; why would she tell Walter, a total stranger, that David was NOT the father, unless she really believed what she had been told about "sonograms and calendars"? I agree with you, jpen. Maddie looks certain David's not the father... Besides, she tells David she's absolutely sure about it...I caught a note of sadness in her voice... and a bit of resignation, too... Damn doc! Should have studied more instead of reading "How to have a perfect lawn" manuals!!! Shame on you, Dr. Hill!!! It's all your fault!! Grrrrr.... I think she put the Walter Bishop roadblock in David's way because of how much she loved him. I don't think she did this to hurt David. She just panicked big time and started the Avoidance game with a big 'ol capital "A"!! I'm with you, bees. Maddie does not want David to change for her, that's why she chooses the "white stuff in your coffee"... I wonder whether she'd have avoided a sincere commitment to David even if her doc had interpreted the sonograms correctly... Who knows? It just got really weird when she started acting like she could not understand why David could not say something nice. I think Maddie felt ashamed for having married Wally... Maybe she said those words to pretend that her act was an ordinary one... It's almost as she wanted to say: "I acted spontaneously!Spontaneity is a good thing... Right, David? So, say "Congratulations!" " But deep inside, she knew she had made things worse... Look at her face at the very end of the episode... I don't know.........Does it make any sense?
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Post by beesnbears on Nov 23, 2008 22:18:03 GMT -5
" she chooses the "white stuff in your coffee"... italiablue Yeah.....all fake-like and full of stuff that is not really good for you......... " But deep inside, she knew she had made things worse... Look at her face at the very end of the episode... I don't know.........Does it make any sense?"....italiablue Refer to diane's signature........
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Post by lin212 on Nov 24, 2008 19:46:44 GMT -5
I know I'm a bit late jumping into this thread, but I wanted to share some thoughts on the paternity issue. I think that everyone is right when supporting their position on whether or not Maddie believed that David was the baby's father because it seems to me that the writers were all over the place on this. In "Father Knows Last", Maddie tells her mother that she doesn't know who the father is. Then at the beginning of "Tracks" when she is packing up to return to LA, she tells her father that it doesn't matter who the father is. Then all of a sudden on the train, she tells Walter that David was "in the right place at the wrong time", so he isn't the father. All of these seem sincere and truthful. I think Maddie's remark to David later in "Tracks" that she is "absolutely certain" is a lie. Three days earlier as she is boarding the train, she didn't know who the father is and then all of a sudden, she's absolutely certain?? And then when David asks her again in "Eek!" if she is having his baby, she denies it, looks down and seems very uncomfortable with his question. So, in these episodes, it appears that she is not all that certain about the baby's paternity. As we move on to MHGM, and Maddie delivers that speech about how she wishes with all her heart that David was the father. Again, her feelings seem truly heartfelt. So, which is it?
It seems that the writers started off with the uncertainty tactic as they pre-taped all of Cybill's scenes prior to her maternity leave. Then Glen came up with the Walter Bishop angle, so they had to devise a story line to make that work, i.e., that David was not the father and that Maddie didn't want to change him. Then after the airing of "Tracks", all hell broke loose and the fans revolted, so we got little uncertainty back in "Eek!" and Agnes' speech about the white stuff which, in essence, expressed the frustration of the fans. Then we end up with MHGM. The writers couldn't have Maddie do a complete 180 since she was "absolutely certain" a couple of episodes earlier, so they settled on the "I wish this was your baby inside of me" line.
The bottom line, IMHO, is that Maddie was sincere in each situation (even in her discomfort when declaring her certainty), but there is no consistency in the story line. It seems to me that the writers kept changing the ground rules. Just my opinion...
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Post by italianbluemooner on Nov 24, 2008 20:04:20 GMT -5
Wow lin212, you just brought a lot of new info to this thread!! Boy, I did not know the historical background of this episode... The writers messed it all up, didn't they? What a shame! The pregnancy thing was such a good storyline... It would've developed Maddie and David's characters big time, if only had they not handled the subject in such a clumsy way.
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Post by beesnbears on Nov 24, 2008 20:27:31 GMT -5
"....Then at the beginning of "Tracks" when she is packing up to return to LA, she tells her father that it doesn't matter who the father is. Then all of a sudden on the train, she tells Walter that David was "in the right place at the wrong time", so he isn't the father. All of these seem sincere and truthful...." lin212
Hi lin212!! Always like to read your posts
You are right, everything does get confusing and all wishy-washy!! But, what you said above really makes me think that Maddie is convinced that the baby is Sam's.
But then I get all wishy-washy because of what you say here:
"I think Maddie's remark to David later in "Tracks" that she is "absolutely certain" is a lie."
OOOHHHH!! She's not really certain, even if the Dr. did explain her test results and sonogram...........because in her heart she really feels it is David's.......and she tells him she wants it to be his.........
Yes, the writing was kinda squirming all over the place, but I think WE have it figured out.....and diane ain't completely off her rocker!!!
I will say though, I don't think it was necessarily an intentional lie.......
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Post by diane on Nov 24, 2008 21:04:35 GMT -5
I stand my ground.......not a malicious lie, maybe not a totally premeditated lie, but a lie nonetheless.
(But believe me, I am not relieving the writers of any responsibility)
And while we talk about the writers, I also think that the editing process added to some of the confusion and continuity issues in general. I have read enough ML scripts to see lots of scenes that have not made the cut, but have left parts of the episode that follow seem disjointed. I will save my favorite for when we discuss "Maddie Hayesw Got Married".
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Post by MoonBeemer on Dec 1, 2008 22:31:07 GMT -5
Legitimate cases can be made either way as to if Maddie knew/was being straight with David about the true parentage of the baby. As aforementioned on this thread, there are times when she seems evasive (almost vindictive even) when questioned about it (that could also be regret on her part) and then of course there’s a couple of moments she seems to genuinely believe the child would be born wearing moonboots. If the latter were true, I have always found it more than curious that Maddie didn’t inform Sam he was going to be a father. If she in fact did fib, it is feasible that she felt she was sacrificing for David’s sake as Diane said. Another possibility is that Maddie withheld the information (or at least the room for uncertainty) because she needed to know that David wanted to be with her for the longterm solely for her and not out of a sense of obligation similiar to the case with his marriage to Tess…and maybe she needed to be sure of the same from her standpoint. I honestly don’t think that neither Maddie nor the writers (from a ratings-through-suspense standpoint) were or wanted the paternity to be certain at that point. Also, as some have noted, accounting guru Maddie has to know that her numbers don't support the Spaceman theory (if she thinks otherwise, no wonder Blue Moon's auditors have their hands full!). And, of course, there was the ambiguous conversation at the end of "To Heiress Human" implying that she didn't not do what she said she did until a point after she and each Sam & David did what they did but before she & David did what they would do unless somehow she didn't do what she thought she did before she & David did what they did/would do or she just plain didn't do what she said she did before she & David did what they did/would do...<insert cross-eyed smiley here>
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Post by MoonBeemer on Dec 1, 2008 23:13:48 GMT -5
As a newcomer, let me first thank all who host and contribute to this very thought-provoking forum! As someone who recently discovered the DVDs and is getting the opportunity to watch this favorite show for the first time since it originally aired (thanks to those who campaigned to make it possible!), it’s so great to discover an inviting, fun and smart place for fans of the show to debrief, discuss, dissect, disseminate, etc, etc, etc… I don’t have much new to add to the brilliant (not to mention thorough!) analysis and insight already offered on this episode, but since I have to start somewhere, better now than the next round when the dreaded A-word is on tap (talk about gluttons for punishment!). Therefore, without further ado, here’s my inner most ‘essed’ thoughts on this episode as they relate to some of questions and comments aforeposed. To me, the Body Heat sequence (aka the Hell Man v. Hellman’s Husband) embodied the essence of this episode and was absolutely a manifestation of Maddie’s deepest desires and fears. One on hand, she has a baby to think about now and making (what she feels are) responsible decisions in that regard. Then there’s also David - she doesn’t want to risk “DeDaving” him any by having him try to conform to some preconceived notion of the ideal husband/father. I agree his disappearing represents her fears of them losing their passion in a settled life and possibly even of him subsequently deserting her as a result. Beyond that, Maddie also has herself to consider. She craves the spice and flavor that David brings to her life (Agnes would probably liken him to mustard ) - and not just physically: He sees and breaks through her outer shield, shattering the cool, composed exterior to reveal the vulnerable, passionate woman that lie beneath. They both know (and David has pointed out as early as the pilot episode) that she needs his liberating force in her life and, even though she won’t concede that point to him, she needs to salvage that influence all the more with the daunting constrictions (however self-imposed) that the realities of impending motherhood, marriage, and facing David again present. And as someone already astutely pointed out, she struggles with the responsbility of decisions involving the heart and longs for clarity (such as an intent David hurling a symbolic tricycle through the glass). At this point, she’s striving for a best-case scenario that will keep him in her life, in the least risky way possible, to preserve that aspect of her life. Maybe her impromptu marriage, partially intended as a means to that end, wasn’t so spontaneous after all. As to Bee's questions about emotions, to me, the rollercoaster ride of emotion and the riveting chemistry and performances of the last scene of this episode make for one of the most reasonating, poignant, memorable moments of the entire series.
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