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Post by jpen on Nov 11, 2008 21:59:29 GMT -5
Something that occurred to me while I was re-watching tonight...Jim Bower gets a heckuva lot of screen time in this ep--in fact, I'd hazard a guess that he might have more lines than David or Maddie.
What's up with that?
And, BTW, he is definitely on something mind-altering...or mind-removing. Catch the blank stare in Maddie's office, before he says "Home"?
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Post by callmeditzy on Nov 11, 2008 22:02:32 GMT -5
I think you’re right, beesnbears, that Maddie’s relationship with the employees is “distant at best” and that she knows “David is their hero”. But I also think that she wishes otherwise. There are many times when she seems to really want the employees to like her or, more specifically, she wants to join in on the comraderie that David shares with them. She’s so awkward in her attempts, though, that it just comes off as unnatural and the employees don’t respond the way she would have hoped.
Manitobadesigner, you said “She escalates into furiousness when she suspects that he would defend a man who hit his wife, and for her, that's a new layer of 'irresponsibility' she chooses to see in David” and I agree. But I would add that I think Maddie’s so upset at the thought of David condoning such actions because she has grown to care for him so much. She’s come to see so many of his good qualities, that weren’t apparent when she first met him, and changed the way she views him as a person. Being as unyielding as Maddie often is, that is a huge step for her. So, after all of that yielding, for David to appear to defend a man beating his wife…it’s like a big neon sign to her that maybe she was wrong to soften her views on David. Maybe he really is the Neanderthal she thought he was initially. That thought would no doubt disappoint her, but also make her very, very angry.
And I love your perspective of the fantasy kisses being apologies. What a great image!
I think her anger was over-the-top, too, Jen. But that’s why I think it went much deeper than David criticizing her for being devoid of passion and spontaneity. When that was the subject of their argument, it was your standard David and Maddie Don’t See Eye To Eye argument. And they’ve had that particular one several times before now. It’s not until the subject of spousal abuse comes up do the gloves really come off and they start really attacking each other’s basic nature.
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Post by manitobadesigner on Nov 11, 2008 22:05:00 GMT -5
Something that occurred to me while I was re-watching tonight...Jim Bower gets a heckuva lot of screen time in this ep--in fact, I'd hazard a guess that he might have more lines than David or Maddie. What's up with that? And, BTW, he is definitely on something mind-altering...or mind-removing. Catch the blank stare in Maddie's office, before he says "Home"? Yeah, that Jim had a total break from reality - some kind of dissociative thing I guess. I just happened to be reading a DVD review of season three, and the critic was noticing the same thing - that there started to be more guest cast than Cybill and Bruce. He was theorizing that perhaps the two of them in every scene was holding up production, and they had to spread out the cast a bit more. GGC was talking about how they added Curtis Armstrong to pare down their screen time even more (on the commentary)
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Post by beesnbears on Nov 11, 2008 22:17:15 GMT -5
Ok, I know I have made a pig out of myself, but I started wondering something else about this ep and that is the music. After watching this again, I wondered why they chose the songs that they did. So, in my "essed" way I looked up the lyrics! DEDICATED TO THE ONE I LOVEWhile Im far away from you my baby I know its hard for you my baby Because its hard for me my baby And the darkest hour is just before dawnI thought about this from David's point of view. The darkest hour being the night in the office where the slap happens....dawn being the next morning with the wishful kissing! Even though it is played as background for Bower's return to his house, the cases almost always reflect what is going on with Maddie and David. I’VE BEEN WAITINGPlayed where Maddie is waiting for David to come back to the office. We don't actually hear "Waiting for a girl like you" but I think it is assumed that we know the song....it was a popular hit back then. David's viewpoint: So long I've been looking too hard, I've waited too long Sometimes I don't know what I will find I only know it's a matter of time When you love someone When you love someone It feels so right, so warm and true I need to know if you feel it too Maybe I'm wrong Won't you tell me if I'm coming on too strong? This heart of mine has been hurt before This time I wanna be sure I've been waiting for a girl like you To come into my life I've been waiting for a girl like you A love that will survive Maddie's viewpoint: I've been waiting for someone new To make me feel alive This may be really corny....or desperate.....but I see this as another way to say that they both are waiting on the other to take the next step in their relationship.Maddie has really waited for someone to sweep her off her feet. David has done that at times, but he "is not who she is suppose to be with". And Maddie is waiting in her office!! LOL! .....ok, so maybe it was chosen just cuz it sounded good!!! I just like the music they always pick in the show.....can you tell!? Did I ever say that this is one of my favorite eps...if I have to choose!
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Post by jpen on Nov 11, 2008 22:17:24 GMT -5
But that’s why I think it went much deeper than David criticizing her for being devoid of passion and spontaneity. When that was the subject of their argument, it was your standard David and Maddie Don’t See Eye To Eye argument. And they’ve had that particular one several times before now. It’s not until the subject of spousal abuse comes up do the gloves really come off and they start really attacking each other’s basic nature. Yes, I agree. And I'd add that Maddie goes on the offensive here--IMO, David's attack on her "crap" is mainly a reaction to her anger (and the fact that she won't listen to him). In the car, she barely lets him respond (he says, "Will you let me talk?" and she does--barely)--she just bulldozes the few comments he can get in. And he actually backs off in that scene--literally--stands back from the car and lets her go.
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Post by manitobadesigner on Nov 11, 2008 22:19:02 GMT -5
ManitobadesignerBut I would add that I think Maddie’s so upset at the thought of David condoning such actions because she has grown to care for him so much. She’s come to see so many of his good qualities, that weren’t apparent when she first met him, and changed the way she views him as a person. Being as unyielding as Maddie often is, that is a huge step for her. So, after all of that yielding, for David to appear to defend a man beating his wife…it’s like a big neon sign to her that maybe she was wrong to soften her views on David. Maybe he really is the Neanderthal she thought he was initially. That thought would no doubt disappoint her, but also make her very, very angry. And I love your perspective of the fantasy kisses being apologies. What a great image! Yes exactly. That is spot on. It's like she gets disillusioned with him every time they have a difference of opinion. She never seems to trust herself enough to trust him! Thanks, I always thought that scene was a metaphor for both of them taking a wee step further towards each other in understanding.
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Post by jpen on Nov 11, 2008 22:25:53 GMT -5
bees--I'm right there, piggin' out with you! On the subject of "Waiting...For a Girl Like You": I watched this snippet a few times, because I wanted to see what Maddie was feeling as she waited. She's definitely angry at David for staying at the Bowers', but I think she might also be worried about him. After all, he's been hanging out all day with a self-confessed murderer (or "murderer-maybe"). Then, when he comes into the office, singing, and she realizes he's ok, she lets the anger take over. OK, must put kids to bed--will check in with y'all in a little bit!
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Post by beesnbears on Nov 11, 2008 22:29:03 GMT -5
"But I would add that I think Maddie’s so upset at the thought of David condoning such actions because she has grown to care for him so much. She’s come to see so many of his good qualities, that weren’t apparent when she first met him, and changed the way she views him as a person. Being as unyielding as Maddie often is, that is a huge step for her." Ditz
I like it!! It goes back to her resisting him because she has always had a plan or preconceived notion of who she is suppose to be with.
As far as speculating that there is something more to Maddie's anger due to something in her past, I suppose we can only do just that.....speculate. As cautious as Maddie has always seemed to be with her relationships, I find it hard to believe that she would ever hook up with someone that would abuse her. She was so independent and headstrong.
Is this what you are saying?
You know, they both had tempers that at times involved violence.
Maddie pelting her Dad with her purse and slapping David. David destroying his office and wrecking the BMW.
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Post by callmeditzy on Nov 11, 2008 22:37:54 GMT -5
I'm glad you brought up the music, beesnbears, because that was one of the things I had written down as a possible discussion question. Usually, when "outside", popular music was used, it was uptempo stuff played over zany chase scenes. But when there were slower, more dramatic, more thoughtful scenes, they usually went with the slower version of the Moonlighting theme or what became known as Maddie's Theme. But this is the only instance I can think of (not that that means there aren't any others!) where they used an "outside" piece of music for such a scene. And I thought it was kind of jarring, but I can't pinpoint why.
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Post by jpen on Nov 11, 2008 22:38:42 GMT -5
Yes, you're right about their tempers...the irony of this ep is that they are BOTH incredibly passionate people--Maddie just tries to tamp hers down because (I think) she's scared of being out of control.
And I guess I was suggesting that there could've been some kind of abusive situation in her past, though as I (and you) said, it's total speculation because we're given no other evidence for it. It's interesting--we have a little window into David's previous relationships, but virtually nada for Maddie's. Even with Sam, we only get the sense that they dated for awhile in college--but no sense of what the relationship was like or what it meant to her.
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Post by manitobadesigner on Nov 11, 2008 22:47:04 GMT -5
Yes, you're right about their tempers...the irony of this ep is that they are BOTH incredibly passionate people--Maddie just tries to tamp hers down because (I think) she's scared of being out of control. jpen
Yes, I agree. I think somewhere in her life, she learned that it's not a good idea to trust her heart - perhaps a result of maybe too many bad relationships with men, so she learned to use control to manage her relationships. David is the first man, IMO, who makes her feel out of control, and she never really figured out how to handle that, even til the bitter end...
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Post by beesnbears on Nov 11, 2008 22:52:36 GMT -5
Ditzy, I have not thought about them using non-Maddie music in the office only one time and this is the episode! Maybe this is why "I've Been Waiting" stood out so much to me.
I do really love the interludes Alf Clausen uses for Maddie, David and even Agnes. I wish I could get a recording of all of the different ones he used. They are really quite beautiful!!
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Post by callmeditzy on Nov 11, 2008 22:55:46 GMT -5
"Yes, you're right about their tempers...the irony of this ep is that they are BOTH incredibly passionate people--Maddie just tries to tamp hers down because (I think) she's scared of being out of control."
You're so right, Jen, and I never thought of it that way. The difference lies in what they're passionate about. Maddie's passion seems to flare up when her apple cart's being disturbed. She believes there's a certain order to things, a way that things should be and a way that people should behave, and that if she just follows those guidelines, everything in her life will fall into place. But when life throws a curveball at her (like a giant one named David), she feels like the balance of the universe is out of whack and everything's just wrong wrong wrong and she feels out of control and freaks the hell out.
David, on the other hand, is passionate about life and enjoying it. Ironically, that includes all of the curveballs that might be thrown at him along the way. He embraces the unpredictability of life, while Maddie spends all of her energy trying to guard against unpredictability.
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Post by diane on Nov 11, 2008 22:56:42 GMT -5
Sorry guys, I have not gotten my rewatching done........the dog ate my DVD? Am popping it in as I type and will join in the discussion tomorrow........I am not reading till then.....don't wanna get lazy and steal all your good stuff.........
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Post by beesnbears on Nov 11, 2008 23:03:01 GMT -5
"David is the first man, IMO, who makes her feel out of control, and she never really figured out how to handle that, even til the bitter end" Manitoba Could not have said it better. This fuels her anger while she tries to figure out what it is she wants and how to get it. And Ditzy I agree. MAddie does want to be "friends" with her employees and is ackward when trying. Remember MFD where she tries to tell them jokes in the office? Could be with her modeling career she had no time for friends much less relationships. And I agree jpen, we don't get to see a whole lot about MAddie's past relationships like we do with David. Hmmm......might make for some good fanfic....hint, hint!!
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