graycav56
3rd Level
I can't imagine not rewatching with you next week.
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Post by graycav56 on Jun 2, 2009 20:13:34 GMT -5
The Second Phone Call: 7. This episode directly precedes "Father Knows Last" in which David states that he asked Maddie to marry him and she refused. Do you think the "proposal" might have happened at any time during the CHD episodes? To this day, the proposal thing confuses me! I don't think it happened during CHD. I like to believe it was the month they spent together after Sham left. Sometime after the Bimmer rolled down the street and before the Cheeseburger speech! I kind of like this theory; seems pretty realistic to me. Me Three! The proposal was right up there with the Anselmo case of things never solved. Just like the mystery of what happened to the Russian Spetsnaz guy that got shot by Paulie in the Jersey Pine Barrens in the Sopranos!
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Post by beesnbears on Jun 2, 2009 20:14:57 GMT -5
8. How do you feel about the big musical number in Part 2?
Very clever!! ;D
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graycav56
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I can't imagine not rewatching with you next week.
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Post by graycav56 on Jun 2, 2009 20:16:37 GMT -5
Excellent questions, jpen and company! I'll tackle 'em as answers come to me, if that's all right... 6. Is the dynamic between them here "typical" Maddie and David?That first phone call just seems so...stilted, to me. I like that David calls Maddie out, in a way; I like that he's a little snide with her because, to be honest, she kind of deserves it. But Maddie's so hard to read during the exchange--her voice is just so flat--and I'm not a fan of the way she begs him not to come to Chicago. Also, it's weird to me that she's sitting right there by the phone, that she answers it on the first ring; clearly, she was expecting an important call--and I find it hard to believe that she didn't think David would be on the other end of the line. Which leads me to... 4. Do you think Maddie is angry that Agnes spilled the beans about the baby when David calls to tell her he knows, or do you think Maddie wanted Agnes to do just that?I hadn't thought of it like that, but I think it makes perfect sense that Maddie was basically passing the burden of telling David about the baby, to Agnes. Not a great move on Maddie's part, although I do like that Agnes sensed the importance of the moment, and that she understood the trust Maddie placed in her. The Agnes/Maddie dynamic is such a complex one, really, and I like those moments where they are more friends than co-workers. 9. Do you think David changes during the course of this episode?I think this episode is pretty depressing, in a lot of ways. I just feel so bad for David. For example, I found myself disproportionately upset when he was arrested at the bar; I mean, the guy just gets beat up on for two straight episodes, and you can't help but feel sorry for him. As for changing, though, I suppose he does--particularly in terms of his feelings about Maddie. I mean, his anger with her remains, but I think it kind of melts a bit into reluctant understanding by the end of part two, after he hears the messages. Part one ends with that bitter faux-dialogue-- You're not his father, I didn't tell him about you--and David is clearly villainizing Maddie, picturing her as some shrew who is interested solely in hurting him. But, when he hears those messages--when Maddie tells him she loves him for respecting her wishes--I think he feels guilty, and also gains a bit of perspective. Yes, it's a bit manipulative of her to play the "If you care about me, you'll stay away from me" card; however, I think David now understands that Maddie needs to be alone, and that that does not equate to her no longer loving him. I think, in a way, this episode is a great lead-in to "Father Knows Last", because--after the events of "Cool Hand Dave"--David has essentially given up the chase. He still loves Maddie, and she loves him, but the direct approach just isn't going to work. Gorky hacked into my computer and stole my notes. What a super analysis.
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Post by beesnbears on Jun 2, 2009 20:19:22 GMT -5
9. Do you think David changes during the course of this episode?
Yes, he realizes from Maddie's messages that she does love him and that he will just have to be patient for her return.
Although, I do feel he was still adrift and wondering aimlessly until Mr. Hayes shows up in the next episode.
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graycav56
3rd Level
I can't imagine not rewatching with you next week.
Posts: 948
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Post by graycav56 on Jun 2, 2009 20:21:15 GMT -5
1. As you probably know, this episode was inspired by the 1967 film "Cool Hand Luke," starring Paul Newman. What connection(s) do you see between the film and the ep?I've never seen the movie--which, admittedly, could contribute to why I judge this episode so harshly at times--but I think the writers did a great job of creating an atmosphere that reminded me of other movies of what David deems the "escape" genre (specifically Escape from Alcatraz). There are moments in this episode that really do make your heart race a little--such as David's pseudo-escape in search of a telephone. They really nailed the conventions of the genre...and mocked them in classic Moonlighting style. Its been a long time for me since I saw Cool Hand as well. I think other than the prison locale, the chain gang and the hole there weren't many similarities that I remember. I kept waiting for Steve Guttenberg to show up at some point.
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graycav56
3rd Level
I can't imagine not rewatching with you next week.
Posts: 948
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Post by graycav56 on Jun 2, 2009 20:24:08 GMT -5
10. Does your reaction to Maddie change between M/D's initial phone conversation, and her messages at the end of Part 2? Do you think David's reaction to her changes?
Yeah and yeah. I think Maddie’s statement of love was a salve on the huge wounds Dave had just incurred, and I believe it shifts Dave away from an “anger first” feeling to one of trying to “understand first”.
Amazing what power is found in those three little words.
HEY! I made three stars! But looking at how many posts Bees has I suppose four stars requires something along the number equivalent to the national debt! Yee hah!
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gorky
1st Level
Posts: 72
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Post by gorky on Jun 2, 2009 20:24:43 GMT -5
Gorky hacked into my computer and stole my notes. I also played a few games of Minesweeper on there, too. Hope you don't mind. I think "Cool Hand Dave" kind of embittered David (or re-embittered him, considering the guy was pretty upset to begin with), and "Father Knows Last" softened him. It made him realize that the chase was over; now, he had to worry about how he fit into the picture with Maddie. He couldn't force her into coming back home, but he could make things easier for her when she chose to return. Hence all the maturing--the lamaze classes and such. Although I stand by my belief that "Cool Hand Dave" was mostly filler, it did get David to a pretty low place that he would have to dig himself out of in subsequent episodes.
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Post by lin212 on Jun 2, 2009 20:30:30 GMT -5
9. Do you think David changes during the course of this episode?I think this episode is pretty depressing, in a lot of ways. I just feel so bad for David. For example, I found myself disproportionately upset when he was arrested at the bar; I mean, the guy just gets beat up on for two straight episodes, and you can't help but feel sorry for him. As for changing, though, I suppose he does--particularly in terms of his feelings about Maddie. I mean, his anger with her remains, but I think it kind of melts a bit into reluctant understanding by the end of part two, after he hears the messages. Part one ends with that bitter faux-dialogue-- You're not his father, I didn't tell him about you--and David is clearly villainizing Maddie, picturing her as some shrew who is interested solely in hurting him. But, when he hears those messages--when Maddie tells him she loves him for respecting her wishes--I think he feels guilty, and also gains a bit of perspective. Yes, it's a bit manipulative of her to play the "If you care about me, you'll stay away from me" card; however, I think David now understands that Maddie needs to be alone, and that that does not equate to her no longer loving him. I think, in a way, this episode is a great lead-in to "Father Knows Last", because--after the events of "Cool Hand Dave"--David has essentially given up the chase. He still loves Maddie, and she loves him, but the direct approach just isn't going to work. So true, gorky. Couldn't say it any better.
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graycav56
3rd Level
I can't imagine not rewatching with you next week.
Posts: 948
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Post by graycav56 on Jun 2, 2009 20:31:41 GMT -5
I think we can all agree that the most basic problem of season four was that David and Maddie were never on-screen at the same time; the chemistry died, and so did a lot of fan interest. Not to mention it makes it impossible to pull off a cute CHD themed avatar with Cybill in it! (Hey, you make do...)
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gorky
1st Level
Posts: 72
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Post by gorky on Jun 2, 2009 20:34:00 GMT -5
I think we can all agree that the most basic problem of season four was that David and Maddie were never on-screen at the same time; the chemistry died, and so did a lot of fan interest. Not to mention it makes it impossible to pull off a cute CHD themed avatar with Cybill in it! (Hey, you make do...) Hee, there's always Claymation Cybill... I hereby propose that we rewatch "Come Back, Little Shiksa" at some point this fall, just so I can see a gray Claymation avatar.
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Post by manitobadesigner on Jun 2, 2009 20:35:20 GMT -5
Hey everybody! Great questions, Jen, here goes...
I think Dave's in shock, and he's sorta freaked in general, and is responding viscerally - I really don't think he's even able to process embarrassment or anger about them being busted.
3. The guacamole/Sexual Healing sequence hands down!
4. I don't think she's angry, I think Maddie knew full well that the news would leak, and it fits in with her pattern of avoidance perfectly. She didn't have the guts to try David again during the day, thogh I have to give her some credit for phoning him first.
5. He assumes that she knew before leaving, and he also assumed that perhaps she wasn't going to tell him and stay away forever.
6. Not in the classic sense with the arguing and the fighting, she's a soppy mess for one thing, not up to any banter or expression of anger. He's also seconds away from tears, so no, I wouldn't say that either of them are acting typically.
8. I actually really enjoyed the number - great song, and great actors in those convict roles - I recognized the tall black man who later played Murphy Brown's boss in the mid-90s!
9. I do think he turns a corner emotionally - he's exhausted and all his fight seems to be gone. He went from mopey, teary David to just plain lie-down-and-die David. I think at this point he just gives up.
11. I totally smelled time-filler here. I would have liked to see the season premiere get the two-part treatment, much more to explore there, but time was short!
12. YES YES YES! I wished he hadn't taken it lying down, Maddie's message was clearly heartfelt yet at the same time manipulative. I wished he had the resolve even after hearing that message to go to Chicago.
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graycav56
3rd Level
I can't imagine not rewatching with you next week.
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Post by graycav56 on Jun 2, 2009 20:36:48 GMT -5
4. Do you think Maddie is angry that Agnes spilled the beans about the baby when David calls to tell her he knows, or do you think Maddie wanted Agnes to do just that?I don't think Maddie wanted Agnes to tell David. When David calls her, she says that she is not ready to have that conversation. And even at the end when she leaves the first message for David, she says that she hasn't told her parents and is not up to arguing with him ("going 15 rounds"). Obviously, she expected confrontation with David. Add to that Maddie's control and avoidance issues, I think that she would have preferred to tell David about the baby in her own time. Given that, I don't think she was angry at Agnes for letting the cat out of the bag. She knows that Agnes would never do anything intentional to hurt her. It just meant that she had to deal with the situation sooner than she had intended. You know, although this is the opposite of what I posted earlier, I can see lin's point here as well. I think from a story point of view SOMEBODY had to tell Dave about the baby, and this method kept it going for a few more scenes before D&M actually discussed the matter.
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Post by manitobadesigner on Jun 2, 2009 20:37:36 GMT -5
Oh yeah, I forgot to thank Rose and Diane along with Jen for da questions. Lovely work, ladies!
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Post by beesnbears on Jun 2, 2009 20:37:57 GMT -5
10. Does your reaction to Maddie change between M/D's initial phone conversation, and her messages at the end of Part 2? Do you think David's reaction to her changes?My reaction to MAddie doesn't really change. I feel for her in the first phone call, although very short because David hangs up. But she does finish her conversation with the first message she leaves, saying she hasn't told her parents yet, etc.....I think this might help David understand a little better, but he doesn't quit packing until he hears her 2nd message, which we are to assume, is about 2 1/2 weeks later. I think David's reaction changes once he hears her say "I love you David" on his machine. (betcha he listened to that every night until she came back ) He gets a better understanding of Maddie's position, though still hurting. I will admit I bawled like a baby the first time this aired and I still get a big 'ol lump in my throat when I watch it now. Bruce did an absolutely terrific job with the many facets of CHD. And yes gorky, he was one hot tamale!!!
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graycav56
3rd Level
I can't imagine not rewatching with you next week.
Posts: 948
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Post by graycav56 on Jun 2, 2009 20:39:38 GMT -5
I wanna know why Manitoba isn't at the ice rink!
My Hershey Bears are there playing the Manitoba Moose in the Calder Cup finals!
B...E...A...R...S...bears....Bears....BEARS! Woooooooooo!!
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