|
Post by jpen on Jun 2, 2009 23:48:06 GMT -5
3. IMO, this episode is a great showcase for Agnes and Bert. What are your favorite A/B scenes and/or moments?
This is a tough call. I think I'd have to go with Bert's look--slightly sick to his stomach--when he says, "Not just anybody..." and Agnes' fierceness when she threatens him with the organ bank. Though I also love Bert's gullibility in the scene with "Scottie," when he proves, once again, that Agnes is the smartest cookie in the jar!
|
|
|
Post by jpen on Jun 2, 2009 23:56:29 GMT -5
4. Do you think Maddie is angry that Agnes spilled the beans about the baby when David calls to tell her he knows, or do you think Maddie wanted Agnes to do just that?
This is a bit of a stumper for me. On the one hand, Maddie called David first, so clearly she intended to tell him herself, at least in that moment. However, given that she knows Agnes is very close with David, I find it hard to believe that Maddie wouldn't realize that Agnes might tell him inadvertently.
The phone call to Agnes was impulsive--spontaneous, if you will--and I don't think she left that message hoping that Agnes would do the tough work for her...but subconsciously, I think she must've known where that road could lead...
|
|
|
Post by jpen on Jun 3, 2009 0:06:17 GMT -5
5. Why do you think David's first words to Maddie are "How long have you known?"
I think David immediately goes to the possibility that Maddie left LA because of the pregnancy...and along with that, the possibility that the baby is Shammy's. This is a guy who is not only adept at connecting the dots, he's also feeling very insecure right now about his place in Maddie's life. And he's so shocked by Bert's revelation that he can't put up his usual wisecracking, snarky front: the agonizing, overriding question just tumbles right out of his mouth.
As an aside...Bruce is so terrific in this scene. When Bert tells him, he loses all of his falsely cynical heartiness, and the look on his face is just--heartbreaking. Even his tone of voice when he asks Maddie that question holds a world of emotion: fear, frustration, anger...with an undertone of tenderness. I don't know how he does it!
|
|
|
Post by jpen on Jun 3, 2009 0:07:32 GMT -5
9. Do you think David changes during the course of this episode?I think this episode is pretty depressing, in a lot of ways. I just feel so bad for David. For example, I found myself disproportionately upset when he was arrested at the bar; I mean, the guy just gets beat up on for two straight episodes, and you can't help but feel sorry for him. As for changing, though, I suppose he does--particularly in terms of his feelings about Maddie. I mean, his anger with her remains, but I think it kind of melts a bit into reluctant understanding by the end of part two, after he hears the messages. Part one ends with that bitter faux-dialogue-- You're not his father, I didn't tell him about you--and David is clearly villainizing Maddie, picturing her as some shrew who is interested solely in hurting him. But, when he hears those messages--when Maddie tells him she loves him for respecting her wishes--I think he feels guilty, and also gains a bit of perspective. Yes, it's a bit manipulative of her to play the "If you care about me, you'll stay away from me" card; however, I think David now understands that Maddie needs to be alone, and that that does not equate to her no longer loving him. I think, in a way, this episode is a great lead-in to "Father Knows Last", because--after the events of "Cool Hand Dave"--David has essentially given up the chase. He still loves Maddie, and she loves him, but the direct approach just isn't going to work. Um...what gorky said.
|
|
|
Post by jpen on Jun 3, 2009 0:16:08 GMT -5
10. Does your reaction to Maddie change between M/D's initial phone conversation, and her messages at the end of Part 2? Do you think David's reaction to her changes?My answer to question nine sort of covered this, but I have something to add about how David's persecution in "Cool Hand Dave" makes Maddie's seem like the bad guy. It occurred to me, maybe part-way through the first episode, that Maddie could never understand all the trouble and pain David went through, all because he wanted to see her. And how crappy it is that he comes home to these messages on his machine begging him not to come to Chicago, even though that has been his intent all along. And I think that's my major issue with this episode: send-up of all those rough-and-tumble prison flicks or not, "Cool Hand Dave" basically turns David into the World's Biggest Martyr. Watch him suffer, all for Maddie. Watch his desparation, his struggle, his sorrow. And hate the woman who's putting him through all this. Of course, I don't hate Maddie. That's why the writing here bothers me. I think this episode tries to make David the most sympathetic guy imaginable--but it does a great disservice to Maddie's character (much like the majority of season four, but I digress). I think the whole "I love you, David" thing at the end of the episode was meant to redeem her, slightly--so that we'd know that, regardless of the hell she may be putting the guy through, she still cares about him. But keeping the baby thing from him, and forbidding him to go to Chicago, and thanking him for not going--well, I think it's pretty clear who the bad guy was supposed to be. Once again, I agree with you, gorky. I do think it's important to remember that, of course, Maddie doesn't know that David has spent the last few days (week?) being physically beaten, trodden down, etc....but she acknowledges that she's put him through the emotional wringer ("I know this must be confusing for you, too..."). The message works for me in terms of reminding me that all this drama has taken place unbeknownst to her...but I still would've loved to see (or hear) more about Maddie's own emotional journey. Oh...and an "I'm sorry" would not have come amiss, either.
|
|
|
Post by jpen on Jun 3, 2009 0:26:35 GMT -5
11. "Cool Hand Dave" is the only two-part episode in all five seasons. Do you think this "needed" to be two hours long? Are there other episodes you would have liked to see get the "two-part" treatment?
I hadn't watched this episode in a long time, and I was surprised at how much I enjoyed it: the plot moved along, and had some nice moments of suspense (David trying to get to the phone was classic), Agnes and Bert were great, and we even got some little crumbs in the form of a conversation (or two, if you count the messages) between our main characters. However, I agree with others that it didn't really "need" to be in two parts--I would've swapped out some of the inmate interaction with more communication with/about Maddie, if that were possible. Oh--and I would've LOVED to see a scene where Agnes, antennae raised by her night swilling vodka with "Scottie," calls the cops over Bert's horrified objections, only to be justified when it turns out that the fictitious cousin is really Mad Dog Huntley...demonstrating once again the superiority of her intuition over Bert's detective "skills." Now that would've been funny.
As for other two-parters, I agree with bees that BAYAAHP needed some more time to deal with the baby's loss (and less freakin' inanity on a parachute). I would also nominate "Womb" and ATTTM as candidates for an extended run, to give us a fuller picture of M/D's relationship at the beginning of both of those episodes.
|
|
|
Post by haddie mayes on Jun 3, 2009 11:16:53 GMT -5
Hi everyone , mind if i join the party. I always enjoy reading your re-watching discussions ,You all seem to be able to diesect and find hidden inner meanings and really get into the heart and minds of Dave and Maddie with such ease. Any way as you have come to one of my fav eps of season 4. Like most of you i love that brilliant line of Berts in office when he tells David about the blue moon baby! Which leads me to ask this question that`s been knoring at the base of my noggin since back in the day. Have any of you ever wondered why Bert seems pretty sure that Davids is the bambinos father, sure we can all guess that David may have mentioned things to both Bert and Agnes over the past few weeks and like one of you said it wouldn`t have taken a much to figure things had stepped up a gear between our battling duo. But in the same breath everyone also knew about Sham! I`m not complaining because if Bert hadn`t assume this then we would`nt have got that great exchange of words. Im just curious what everyones elses take on this is.
|
|
phyll
1st Level
Posts: 16
|
Post by phyll on Jun 3, 2009 22:55:52 GMT -5
Hi everyone, I hope I'm not too late to join in. I always loved CHD and it gets better with age. Apart from the obvious prison connection between CHL. I always admired David for his bravery and survival skills. He was street-wise, still joking around and down with the brothers who saved him in the end. Everyone grew to love him just as they did with Paul Newman. I particularly loved the musical scene, the knife showdown and who doesn't love a food fight. I remember when I first saw it and I still feel the same, Maddie was driving David and Me crazy. When she left him, I thought she was a fool, so therefore I was glad to have 2 episodes of David, without her moodiness and ambivalence! Also can't forget A/B, I always loved them, but especially in this episode when Bert serenaded Agnes. Oh and it was so funny, when they were trying to replace David, thank God they got BW to play him, or we wouldn't be here talking about ML today.
Luv u all, Phyll.
|
|
|
Post by jpen on Jun 4, 2009 16:13:30 GMT -5
12. Do you wish that David had made it to Chicago, tried to talk to Maddie, and then maybe came home without her (since Cybill needed to be off the show still due to real-life pregnancy)...or do you like it the way it was done?
Well, I definitely wish they had been able to talk to each other...now or later. I wouldn't have wanted to miss David's speech in FKL, however... There's a great fan fic by Dana that explores this idea, BTW. Many of you have probably read it, but if you haven't, you can find it here: www.fanfiction.net/s/16108/1/From_Here_To_Uncertainty
|
|
|
Post by beesnbears on Jun 4, 2009 18:24:42 GMT -5
12. Do you wish that David had made it to Chicago, tried to talk to Maddie, and then maybe came home without her (since Cybill needed to be off the show still due to real-life pregnancy)...or do you like it the way it was done?
Well, I definitely wish they had been able to talk to each other...now or later. I wouldn't have wanted to miss David's speech in FKL, however... There's a great fan fic by Dana that explores this idea, BTW. Many of you have probably read it, but if you haven't, you can find it here: www.fanfiction.net/s/16108/1/From_Here_To_Uncertainty This was one of the first fanfics I ever read and remains one of my top favorites! It's a wonderful "replacement" for what really happened...one I could live with, I think, and then we would still get the famous speech in FKL!!
|
|
|
Post by beesnbears on Jun 4, 2009 18:35:50 GMT -5
Have any of you ever wondered why Bert seems pretty sure that Davids is the bambinos father, sure we can all guess that David may have mentioned things to both Bert and Agnes over the past few weeks and like one of you said it wouldn`t have taken a much to figure things had stepped up a gear between our battling duo. But in the same breath everyone also knew about Sham! I`m not complaining because if Bert hadn`t assume this then we would`nt have got that great exchange of words. Im just curious what everyones elses take on this is. haddie mayes Well, I think the wobblies would have to be dead and deaf not to know that M/D had something going other than work!! ;D But, I know what you mean. I guess since Sham was only there 3 days they did not see him as the father of Maddie's baby even though it was a possibility. It was Agnes's intuition! And Bert eavesdropped all the time!! And Bert worshipped David...how he could he NOT be the father!! Lin answered your question much better than my ramblings! See below...
|
|
|
Post by lin212 on Jun 4, 2009 19:19:37 GMT -5
IWhich leads me to ask this question that`s been knoring at the base of my noggin since back in the day. Have any of you ever wondered why Bert seems pretty sure that Davids is the bambinos father, sure we can all guess that David may have mentioned things to both Bert and Agnes over the past few weeks and like one of you said it wouldn`t have taken a much to figure things had stepped up a gear between our battling duo. But in the same breath everyone also knew about Sham! I`m not complaining because if Bert hadn`t assume this then we would`nt have got that great exchange of words. Im just curious what everyones elses take on this is. haddie, I can see the question mark over your head and I know what you mean. However, this is Moonlighting and things sometimes defy logic. So, the short answer is that it probably made the whole scene much more fun and interesting. However, you are right, I am sure that the kids knew a lot more than David and Maddie gave them credit for - not to mention the very loud screaming match in ATTTM where David says, "We've been doing what we've been doing for 4 weeks and nobody knows about us". Maddie follows up by asking, or should I say shouting, if they should tell their employees that they're sleeping together. So, I don't think David and Maddie's relationship was a surprise to any of them. Bert assuming that David is the baby's father - maybe it was a matter of the odds. Sam was on the scene a very short time. Or maybe it was just unthinkable that it could be anyone else BUT David. Another thought - WE know that Maddie and Sam slept together one night, but the employees don't know that for sure. Talking about the paternity of Baby Hayes, I find it way more surprisng that Mr. Hayes assumes that David is the father. I am sure that Maddie never told her parents about their relationship, so that's a REAL head-scratcher!
|
|
|
Post by bluemoonshampoo on Mar 7, 2011 10:44:01 GMT -5
I watched both of these eps back to back last night- you can't separate them can ya? Whenever I re-watch these they bring back memories of the first time around- as a young teen, I was in love with David's love for Maddie! I remember thinking - oh yes, he's going to Chicago anyway: great, great, great and then my disappointment when he ended up in the slammer- I was heartbroken! Hadn't our David been through enough?!
Fortunately- the writers threw in so many comedic moments that I was able to forgive them- the ABC emergency meeting to find a new David is hilarious! The musical number is inspired - and sooooo cute that all these rough types think David should propose to Maddie - well let's just say it filled me with so much hope! Oh- and double fortunate- is just how amazingly good Bruce Willis looked in these two episodes- boy could he wear a prison uniform and make it work for him! Wow!
I also really enjoyed the clever visual parallels with 'Die Hard' here - please tell me I wasn't the only one who noticed him climbing out of a wall shaft John MacClane style here (and it was made after Die Hard) - with a shirt that became increasingly dirtier as the second episode progressed? LOL. Maybe I'm just obsessed with him. I wish they'd added a 4th wall here- when he climbs out: 'I just got a sense of deja vu there' - or something of that nature :-)
To conclude, I must mention her messages to him on the answer machine when he re-plays her 'I love you' - it broke my little heart! I do wish he'd still gone to Chicago though- she definitely called too many of the shots here. When I think of how strong his feelings were at this time, it makes me sick to think of Series 5 and the way he acted with the 'A' word grrrr- I feel like he's been disloyal to me too ha ha.
|
|
|
Post by sandra on Mar 7, 2011 11:07:10 GMT -5
Oh- and double fortunate- is just how amazingly good Bruce Willis looked in these two episodes- boy could he wear a prison uniform and make it work for him! Wow! I know what you're up to! You want to make me watch those!! I will! Soon! Really! More reason to watch!
|
|
|
Post by bluemoonshampoo on Mar 7, 2011 13:32:12 GMT -5
You caught me Sandra - you know you wanna! LOL. There's some fabulous moments in these episodes- just take a big, deep, cleaaaaaansing breath...and jump. Just do it! :-) :-) :-)
|
|