Was Annie supposed to be a D&M catalyst?

[rose35]

First i want to say I am enjoying reading all of these posts! I love when the board is so busy with posts! Everyone has different ways if seeing these episodes. So i will say i despise this episode and the very last episode more than anything ever! I was 19 when this show ended and it really broke my heart cause i put so much of my heart into these 2 characters who i feel were meant for each other! Opposites attract ya know LOL I do believe the Annie arc could have or was meant to play out like another Sam arc just reversed. I think or hope to think that time wise it couldnt be done that way cause the show was being cancelled. But i still hate Annie to this day maybe even more cause she was Maddie's cousin and even if Maddie was really over David how could you want family to go after someone you once were very close with? I would be so disgusted. And David was down right mean ,he wasn't shown as conflicted like Maddie was during the Sam arc. Funny i dont hate Sam, guess if he ended up with Maddie i would have LOL I get mad at the writers cause if they had enough time to put the montage and end talk M/D have at the end in church they could of written those 5 minutes or so another way. It's been how many years since this show eneded? I'm a very hopless romantic person too. I need to believe they worked things out and got back together. All these years later it still gets to me this whole Annie arc. Hmm maybe i need a life? I have one!LOL I know D/M could never have all flowers and mushyness but theyb could still be passionate about one another and not see eye to eye the next! I watch Soaps too and hate when my fave couples are broken up but those characters all find their ways back to one another too. Ah i've rambled on and on but i love coming here for this!

[maddieaddisonjr]

I'm a romantic too, rose. Although my last post was worded rather sharply I'm actually as gentle as a lamb.

I didn't hate Annie but I had a real problem with David 'messing with' Maddie's cousin and Annie being a married woman 'messing with' her own cousin's 'ex'. David and Annie were fooling around just to fool around but they weren't thinking about anyone else's feelings.

I'll beat the horse some more and bemoan the fact that the second arc was incomplete. What would you have thought about an Annie/Maddie cat fight over David like David and Sam had over Maddie? Again if there was more passion and tension shown between D/M I'd be all for the jealousy arc to be played out matching the first one.

[Frontier]

I really enjoy reading these posts as well, it's really nice to meet kindred spirits after all ;D

As honeyblonde noted, I've never tried to turn this thread to a "We want a reunion movie" thread, I was just expressing my opinion regarding the Annie storyline: that one cannot tell for sure what it was meant for, since we never got the time (and the episodes) to experience the effects of it. In response to the initial question regarding the Annie arc, my testament was that ML needed a closure so that someone could tell if it was for good or not.

I do think that the main problem was not related to D/M having sex - on the contrary I was more excited/anxious/curious regarding 4th season after their relationship consummation and what the future could bring - but it was the whole 4th season that killed it all. The worst part was not that romance was killed on screen, but off screen as well. Cybill and Bruce did not get along well, but this time they "neglected each-other" regarding their passionate banter. The problem was bipolar; Cybill with her unexpected pregnancy brought nightmares to the writers (and Glenn personally, forcing him to take some wrong decisions, like getting her married to Bishop), Bruce was simply not there anymore - he wanted a way out to make movies - no wonder there was so much conflict (and only conflict) on season 4. This concentrated aggression carried on to season 5 - with the miscarriage by Maddie - because season 4 ended prematurely (due to non-story circumstances like the writers strike).

What could be done on season 5? Not much if you ask me, with Glenn out of the window. So, there are not completely the writers at fault with the demise of the show (Roger Director produced excellent episodes on Season 2 and the best episodes on season 4 and 5 are his), but the fact that the whole soup got cold.

I agree with those who support the fact that Cybill tried hard on season 5 to revive the show (her show) and was frankly devastated when the end came; Bruce on the other hand - right from the "cheerleader-ish" debut of 5th season - was simply 'not there anymore' and needed just to get over it quickly. Remember the speech Maddie gave to Agnes in "Perfetc", on how much she was tired of the "ship going to the wrong direction" - she wasn't talking about her relationship with David, but the agency (the show) itself. How can someone expect romance and tension, when the main characters are not in character anymore (and not there as well).

Forgive me for the long speech, but this brings me to the initial question of the Annie arc, since it was necessary to intro it: the whole arc does not make any sense at all, it was just a pathetically executed IMHO attempt to bring the audience back to the show, but not necessarily deal with M/D relationship. I honestly believe that even at that point, the writers and the cast of the show clearly had no idea on how to proceed to the whole ML story, not just M/D relationship. Maybe that's why the network canceled the series; the viewers felt that the show was so over and ABC could not pay for something that none wanted to watch anymore.

Thats why I believe that the whole Annie arc was meaningless; I can't tell if it was for good or bad for M/D relationship state, because the whole arc was out of scope the time it appeared on the series. This is in contrast with the Sam arc, which was a proper one, created to bring escalation to the tension between M/D (the tension that existed from the start).

This is evident on what Glenn said while he was part of the show:


Just my thoughts folks, sorry for the long post
As someone else said "Thank you for listening" ;D

P.S: I do believe that M/D could not get married, the "thing" they've got was far beyond conventional issues like marriage, but there could be an upbeat ending, instead of the no-ending-at-all we've got.

[Johanna]

I just read all the posts, wow you all bring up good points. I do think that when the writers decided to get an A***e to the show it was meant to bring Maddie and David together in a Sam-like way. Can't say why I think that didn't happen, but I don't think the writers suddenly got a call saying they had to create a series finale fast. Didn't Bruce have a contract for five years of ML and when that expired everyone knew he wouldn't continue? Or was it that they didn't know how many episodes they would make that season?

The difference between Sam and A***e to me was that David wasn't really in touch with any emotions a great deal of the time during season 5. I didn't feel that he was 'in care' with M or A, not the way he was before.

An ending like in Perfetc had been better, there was at least some hope there.

[davnee]

Honey you may be right about Bruce checking out more than Cybill. Hard to really know. I do know that the combustion between them just didn't feel the same anymore during this season. I really do believe that chemistry is something organic between actors. It can't be crafted or faked. But that doesn't mean that bad crafting (writing, acting, directing choices) can't obscure a natural chemistry. Of course, it is also possible that all the water under the bridge between those two in real life just sapped the natural chemistry.

I'm sure all of the above was involved, but I point a definite finger at the crafting. I didn't like the writing for this season, of course, but I also have a big problem with the directing, especially where Cybill is concerned. She was too buffoony this season. Too many yuks. Too many broad physical touches. The glamorous ice queen had lost her glam. I think that really took away from that beauty and the beast element of their chemistry. Cybill is great with broad comedy, just look at her sitcom for proof of that. But I think the directors went too far in drawing out that element of her performance and I think that reflected back negatively on the tone of Maddie and David's relationship.

As for the sex issue, I never bought into the myth that it killed the show. The show died from a perfect storm of bad luck, bad creative choices, bad blood and big egoes. I actually think one of the best episodes of the series is the morning after episode, Heiress. I love Maddie's stupid pacts. So perfect of her character to be both deluded and a control freak about her feelings at once. And of course equally perfect that she breaks the pacts at will because she can't help herself and then thinks they can just make another one. But what I love about Heiress the most is that eventhough the "chase" is over, it is really just starting again. Sure they finally had sex, but they still need to chase love/commitment, because neither one is giving an inch on that one. But how long would that love/commitment "chase" have remained entertaining, would have supported the show? I'm not sure. Could they have then segued them into being Nick and Nora Charles?

I guess what I am saying is that I think that having them have sex didn't kill the show but it required them to reinvent the show. And we know that the reinvention was plagued by all these backstage and real world issues and ultimately failed dismally. But even if the show had been in perfect working order and had had good luck, they still had a tall order to meet. I'd love to be able to pick GGC's brain about this choice and its timing. Did they really need to pull the trigger in the 3rd season? I think they could have strung the sexual tension out through the first part of the 4th season at least before it collapsed under its own weight and became boring. So why risk having to reinvent the show so early? Was this another example of GGC's petulance as a tv writer/producer? And even more, I'd love to know what he envisioned would drive the energy of the poist-coital Moonlighting? Did he have a creative vision that he had to put aside to accomodate Cybill's pregnancy? Or was he just satisfying his own creative itch in the 3rd season without thought to the future? Given what I've read/heard in interviews and commentary by him, he may not have really put much thought into a reinvention. From what I've heard, it seems like he would have been happy to put the lights out on the show after the 3rd season because he was done creatively.

[beesnbears]

IMO, yes, I think Annie was a plot device to get our two back together. But, with the season 5 writers there was a whole lot of confusion as to who David and Maddie were and what they had become to this point.

I don't like the fact that they chose this path, in fact I hate it, but after reading all of the posts on this subject and the other Annie threads and yes.....watching the Annie Arc again........my attention is drawn to the one question David asks Maddie when dancing that night. "Are you happy?" How many times has happiness been brought up between these two? Too many to count, I think.

Why does he behave this way? Because he has been pushed away by Maddie countless times, the last straw being her saying no to going out with him more. He would not chase her anymore.

I almost, but not quite, forgive David for his behavior. He seemed to be in a state of wanting to not feel anymore, because most of what he had felt the last year of his life was nothing but pain. If the David we knew before S5 was really trying to just move on, I don't think he would have hooked up with a married woman, much less a relative of Maddie's. He did have morals and values and showed this many times before. ( Not ol' Dave's fault......S5 writers)

Was Annie a means to make Maddie jealous? Agnes pretty much tells us so when she tells Maddie that she has seen them together in the office the last 5 years enough to know that the only reason David seemed interested in Annie is so he can still be involved with Maddie any which way he can.

Did they still love each other to this point? Yes, but so much had happened with these two that they needed time to find a way back to each other. We saw glimpses of that in S5, but time was not on their side and the writers just did not get it.

Curious that David would ask her if she was happy. All he ever really wanted to do was make Maddie happy.

Okay, guess I am through venting!! Heck of a love story, huh?!?!

[diane]

Beesnbears' post just nudged a little thing in my memory, that always tugged at my heart....at least Maddie's dialogue.

The dialogue in the dancing scene did not air as it was originally written. This is going to turn into a gargantuan post, but I'd like to reproduce what was in the original script, and see what your thoughts are:

They are dancing, and.........

DAVID: Ought to make a point of doing this more often.

MADDIE: No thanks.

DAVID: Least we agree.

MADDIE: You know...you and I should be really proud of ourselves. Going through what we've been through together....most couples would've....I don't know...probably murdered each other by now.

DAVID: Body parts all over the place.

MADDIE: But here we are........

DAVID: Body parts in all the right places.

(and then)

Didn't go out with a bang. Didn't even go out with a whimper. Just woke up one
morning and the fever'd broke.

MADDIE: Happy? Now that your temperature's normal?

DAVID: Yeah.

(and then)

You?

MADDIE: Yeah......I guess I am happier....or at least not as sad....

And Maddie looks over at a.......

COUPLE sitting at a table...and the WOMAN puts her hand over the MAN'S and then they look at each other, smile, then go back to listening to the music....and maddie sees the ease, the comfort in their relationship and just sighs....

MADDIE: You know, David, I envy people like that......in love....sitting there......enjoying each other's company.......and it's all very civilized....

DAVID: Least we know what it's like to be strapped onto a cyclone....nearly got both of us killed...but we had a great ride.


So, what do you think???

[beesnbears]

Well, my first thought is this explains why that scene was so short......they cut out the most painful words. God, I am glad they did not air this scene like that. It's bad enough that they considered it........

My second thought is why did they make it seem like Maddie was enjoying being on the dance floor again, but saying no to going out more.

And my third thought is it is very curious that they thought about having Maddie ask about David's happiness and then switched it to him asking her............

I would really like to know their thinking and why they changed it, but again, I am so glad they did not stick with this version of the script.

[marple]

Thank you beesnbears for bringing up this topic, and thank you diane for the script.
I canft watch this episode without getting angry, but always wondered why Maddie talked to David about the lovers she saw and envied. In the script, I saw her desire to have such a mild, loving and respectful relationship WITH DAVID. At the shrink, she said she finally came to manage their relationship and maybe he matured a little. I think she wanted to control their relationship as ga normal temperatureh. So she asked him if he was happy.
In the season5, she looks vaguely settled down for me, she tried to understand his feelings and make efforts to show her regard for him. She couldnft take risks anymore because itfs after that tragedy. Instead, she wanted their relationship to grow comfortable and civilized, and she knew it would take a long way or might be impossible at this point. But Davidfs state was very different from hers. From the beginning he looks like looking for some fun, and then everyone knows what happened after that. So I feel very sorry for Maddie...

[beesnbears]

I have been mulling this over some more since Diane posted the exerpt from the original script.

Maddie's response to David about happiness is sad, but true. She is in a a state of just not being unhappy, but can't say that she is happy either. What she is really saying is : "I don't know". This makes me feel sorry for her too, Marple.

David saying: "Didn't go out with a bang. Didn't even go out with a whimper. Just woke up one morning and the fever'd broke." Would this be a reference to the morning they are showering and getting ready for work and Maddie was talking about putting an end to their "feverish" month together? Where he was "happier than he had ever been"? So he is happy NOW??? Yeah, right!!

The whole tone of the scene changes, imo, when they flip who asks the question about happiness. Maybe this is why they changed it? It shows Maddie in a softer light when she is the one doing the asking, showing some concern for David's happiness.....something they did not do enough. True Blue fans knew she loved and cared about him and had a heart of gold.....once all of the layers were folded back around her noggin'!!

[rose35]

Wow thanks Diane fior sharing this part of your script. I appreciate you taking time cause you know us fans and how we are How amny scrpits do you have? Like all of them?
I am not crazy about that dialogue myself either. It's nice to see them dance together in that scene and it's seems like David is trying to get Maddie to open up to him, give her another try to say hey lets do this more often but she doesnts want too, i think it sways David to say well if Maddie wont i'm ready to find someone who will have some FUN with me and bingo:ANNIE!
I think Maddie became closed off even more than she was already after losing their baby

[marple]

beesnbears, Ifm not sure about Davidfs saying: gDidnft go outch But I feel like that was his sarcastic remark to reply to her response. Is it right? I suppose he actually wanted to do more groller coaster ridingh with Maddie, to have fun together.
And, yes, rose, as you mentioned, Maddie was more closed off mode than before. David must have been disappointed and tired of her refusalcagain. I felt he had some dissatisfaction at her, though he rarely expressed it. I agree itfs nice to see David and Maddie dance together, talk about their history, relationshipccbut itfs too bad Bert interrupted them and that woman did next...and we were never given it ahead. As beesn mentioned, something they did not do enough was left.
I have to say I donft like the idea that Maddie needed a shrink to deal with her relationship with David. I am not the one against a shrink in case, but I want to believe she could deal it with by herself or with David, because we have seen many examples that they made it up by themselves in the past brilliant episodes. I think the last arc would have been a good final for Maddie and David, if it had been done very well.

[beesnbears]

Hey Diane.........would love to know what you think about the difference between what aired and the script exerpt you posted!!

[diane]

I seldom comment on "When Girls Collide" because I hate it so fiercely, I start to foam at the mouth and rant and rave incessantly.

That said, I of course don't like the original script rendition, except for the one line.

You see, I have always felt sorry for Maddie in this episode. I think it is a huge showing of false bravado for our girl detective. I think she is pretty miserable, and trying hard not to let David see it. I think she and David spend most of the episode dancing around their real feelings.......maybe even doing what they think will make the other happiest. Whenever they tried to think like the other, disaster was sure to ensue.

I would have liked Maddie to admit that she was..."Maybe not as sad"......which to be is a very huge difference from being happy. And I think David would have been enlightened enough to pick up on that. Maybe that's why it was changed.

That said, the whole episode is a train wreck, with people I didn't know in control of David and Maddie's bodies....damned writers!!!

[diane]

" How amny scrpits do you have? Like all of them? "

I wish I had all of them......I have about 75 scripts, which include various revisions of about 50 of the episodes.

I wish I could feel optimistic that I might someday get a copy of each, but I think by now, the sources have pretty much dried up.

I have even tried the Library of Congress to at least read some of the ones I am missing, but even they don;t seem to have all of them, as all they really needed to copyright was a tape of the episode as aired.