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Post by beesnbears on Dec 9, 2008 20:17:52 GMT -5
I did not know that jpen had already volunteered for tonight, so we are co-hosting! This should be more than enough to get you started! 1. The theme of what makes one happy and Maddie "learning a lesson" about herself rings the bells of this Christmas carol. How does Maddie’s definition of happiness in life differ from David’s as evidenced by their conversation in the BMW? Why does David start the conversation about children in the car? 2. Who would you say teaches Maddie to open her heart to the Christmas spirit? 3. Besides the humor in the outer office scene where David finishes Maddie’s sentences in bantering style, what is really revealed in this scene? 4. What do we learn about Agnes in this episode? Just for fun: 1. How badly do you wish David could have seen Maddie with Agnes and the baby under the tree? 2. What is the one prop that shows up in just about every scene?!?! Have fun cats and kittens!!
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Post by italianbluemooner on Dec 9, 2008 21:05:33 GMT -5
Two hosts for tonight's episode! This is GREAT GREAT!!! ;D You better watch out You better not cry Better not pout I'm telling you why Santa Claus is coming to town Santa Claus is coming to town Santa Claus is coming to toooown!!! 1. I believe Maddie never thought about being Happy (with the capital letter) in her entire life! Everything to her is business, business, business!! Duty and responsibility come first. Her attitude toward life is tied to her iciness....But we all know Maddie's got a golden heart. She just conceals her sensitivity - to herself, in the first place, and to anybody else - because she wants to give a different image of herself......... IMO, Maddie did not have a definition of happiness until this episode. David is a completely different person. He's a spontaneous guy....IMO, spontaneity is the only quality that allows grown-ups to connect with children. Children are the personification of what's pure and innocent in this world. David has the right attitude to empathize with children....because he's a child himself!! ;D He's a bit naive, he's not ambitious, he can't hold the grudge for much time....He's able to enjoy the little things of life!! Therefore, it's clear that his definition of happiness differs a lot from Maddie's: David believes that having a family is the ultimate goal of life, while Maddie never thought of what could give her happiness. She just lives her rout, day after day after day after day...... She hasn't those kinds of goals, the best she aspires to is keeping company running.
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Post by lin212 on Dec 9, 2008 21:11:26 GMT -5
Bees, I just have to start from the bottom and answer your last question! The candy cane in David's pocket - I love it! Did you notice that it reappears in IAWJ? What's Christmas without candy canes?!
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Post by beesnbears on Dec 9, 2008 21:17:17 GMT -5
Bees, I just have to start from the bottom and answer your last question! The candy cane in David's pocket - I love it! Did you notice that it reappears in IAWJ? What's Christmas without candy canes?! lin212
Yes Lin212!! I have often wondered if this is like an easter egg or if this was something Bruce did on purpose in both Christmas eps.
Anyone know?
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Post by italianbluemooner on Dec 9, 2008 21:22:01 GMT -5
2. Who would you say teaches Maddie to open her heart to the Christmas spirit?
I think both David and Agnes teach her to open her heart to the Christmas spirit. David clears the ground for Agnes. He sows doubt in Maddie's mind....He gets her ready to understand Agnes's message.... When Maddie speaks to her, she's totally defenseless. All the walls around her heart are down: finally she can admit to herself she's a human being,too.... Just like the rest of us.
I love love love watching Maddie sing a song to Andrew. She really would have made a hell of a mother.
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Post by callmeditzy on Dec 9, 2008 21:26:59 GMT -5
Oh my God, I just typed out a long post and my computer ate it! Bah Humbug!
Deep breath. Anyway...
1. Based on the conversation in the BMW, it seems that Maddie hasn't stopped to think about whether or not she's happy. I think for the last year, and probably for most of her adult life, she's focused on the "business" side of life. She's been too busy making the right decisions for her career, making investments, trying to get back on her feet after Ron Sawyer ruined the life she had built, that she hasn't had time or felt it important to contemplate her emotional fulfillment. Her reaction to David even asking the question is telling. To her, the matter of whether or not she's happy is nonsensical or, at the very least, irrelevant.
David's perception of happiness is simpler and he clearly puts a great deal of importance on it. When Maddie mentions "living alone, running a business...", he interrupts with "But are you happy?" because, to him, happiness trumps all that other stuff. For all his partying and time spent engaging in frivolous pursuits, David is a traditional guy. Because he mentions "happiness" within the framework of a conversation about someday having children, he clearly thinks of family as a part of happiness. I don't think his biological clock is ticking or anything, but I assumes that marriage and children will be a part of his future. Also, the aforementioned partying and frivolity are a part of his happiness, too. Not so much for the debauchery factor, but because it involves being with people and enjoying the simple pleasures of life.
It seems to me that David has clearly thought about Maddie's potential as a mother before this conversation. Typically, men don't spontaneously decide whether or not they think their co-workers would make good parents and then announce it in the middle of a workday. This is something David has allowed himself to wonder about. And I think he mentions it to her to kind of "feel out" her feelings about having children as well as her reaction to him having an opinion about her potential as a mother. He may not admit to himself yet that he's in love with her, but it's obvious that he's personally invested in her plans to have or not have children. He seems almost panicked when she says she guesses "they'll never know". The tone in his voice when he shoots back, "What do you mean?!" reminds me of the tone when she said she didn't believe in God: "How can you NOT?!" It goes beyond just being surprised that a person feels/believes differently from him. If it was Jerguson saying these things, he wouldn't care. It's because it's Maddie, the woman he doesn't even know he's in love with, that he gets so riled up about it. Even though I think it's subconscious at this point, David fears that Maddie's disbelief in God and doubts about having kids poses a threat to the future he could have with her. I think.
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Post by jpen on Dec 9, 2008 21:28:11 GMT -5
[ Yes Lin212!! I have often wondered if this is like an easter egg or if this was something Bruce did on purpose in both Christmas eps. Anyone know? Good spot, lin! I watched the commentary last night, and, sadly, they didn't mention it. But I can kinda see Bruce doing this on purpose--a little visual joke. Also, I guess if you want to get symbolic (and, um, being a former English teacher, I usually do , perhaps it connects to his childlike love of Christmas...
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Post by italianbluemooner on Dec 9, 2008 21:35:19 GMT -5
Bees, I just have to start from the bottom and answer your last question! The candy cane in David's pocket - I love it! Did you notice that it reappears in IAWJ? What's Christmas without candy canes?! YEAH!!! I noticed that, too!! ;D So sweet! I don't know for sure if it's an easter egg.... However I doubt it. I think it was used to define his character even more! After all, Christmas & David are like magic & mirth, thrills & spills, love & laughter..... hot dogs & doughnuts!
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Post by jpen on Dec 9, 2008 21:36:54 GMT -5
2. Who would you say teaches Maddie to open her heart to the Christmas spirit?I think both David and Agnes teach her to open her heart to the Christmas spirit. David clears the ground for Agnes. He sows doubt in Maddie's mind....He gets her ready to understand Agnes's message.... Beautifully put, IBM--love it! When Maddie walks into her living room, everything David has just said comes back to her--she sees the simple joy Agnes takes in singing to Andrew, and (IMO) something opens in her heart that she never even knew was there.
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Post by callmeditzy on Dec 9, 2008 21:38:17 GMT -5
2. I'd say it was Agnes who teaches Maddie about the holiday spirit. For me, the moment when Maddie stops thinking so much about the case and the crime committed and her civic duty to report the baby was when she finds Agnes under her tree. All of a sudden, the rest doesn't matter and the simplicity of it all is so clear to her. Agnes is able to shut the rest out, to ignore the reality that she'll probably have to give this baby back soon, and just enjoy the moment for what it is: "sitting under a tree...with a baby." And the fact that Agnes offers to "share" the baby with Maddie is also moving to her. Not only is Agnes able to find such pure happiness in something so simple, she wants to share that happiness with the people she cares about. Aw, Agnes!
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Post by callmeditzy on Dec 9, 2008 21:42:31 GMT -5
3. Hmmm. This scene is another fine example of how well David knows Maddie and how much it annoys Maddie to know this. I think it's interesting that they've had so many instances when David and Maddie talk over each other, arguing, with contrary opinions/perspectives. But this is a departure. Here, they're talking at the same time, but are perfectly in sync. Of course, this is David and Maddie we're talking about, so even when they're in sync, David reading her thoughts, they're still fighting! I love these two.
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Post by beesnbears on Dec 9, 2008 21:47:43 GMT -5
"This scene is another fine example of how well David knows Maddie and how much it annoys Maddie to know this." ditzy
This is exactly what I felt. He had her figured out pretty much at "Hello!! WOW!!" ;D
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Post by callmeditzy on Dec 9, 2008 21:53:15 GMT -5
4. Ah, Agnes. I paid her no attention when this series first aired, but in watching the DVDs in the last few months, I've come to appreciate what an integral role she played on the show, in the office, and in the relationship between David and Maddie.
Anyway, I think Agnes provides a contrast to Maddie in this episode. We already knew that, like Maddie, she's a single woman in her 30s who lives alone. But here we get a glimpse into her life outside of the office. And we see that, unlike Maddie, she's truly happy with her life. She's not in a relationship, she doesn't have a lot of money, she doesn't have a prestigious career, but she's happy. She decorates her apartment for Christmas, she puts on a Santa hat to do the laundry, and hums Christmas carols throughout it all. When she discovers Aaaandrew, she enjoys being with him without reservation. But there's no feeling of envy or sadness or "why can't I find someone special and have a baby of my own" there. I get the feeling that Maddie didn't "make a fuss" over the baby because she's kind of conditioned herself to not care about that stuff, to not want that stuff, because she doesn't know if she'll ever have any of it in her own life. But Agnes doesn't do that. She doesn't let the uncertainty of her future stand in the way of her enjoyment of being with a baby and other simple things in life.
We spend a lot of time seeing Agnes play the kook, but in this episode she seems to have a deeper understanding of life than Maddie, certainly.
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Post by callmeditzy on Dec 9, 2008 21:56:27 GMT -5
5. Are you kidding me? Let me introduce you to a little game I call "Watching the Maddie/David/Agnes with the Baby Scene in Maddie's Office With the Sound Off and Pretending Maddie and David are Asking Agnes to Be the Godmother of Their Baby".
Is that weird??
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Post by italianbluemooner on Dec 9, 2008 21:57:43 GMT -5
It seems to me that David has clearly thought about Maddie's potential as a mother before this conversation. Typically, men don't spontaneously decide whether or not they think their co-workers would make good parents and then announce it in the middle of a workday. This is something David has allowed himself to wonder about. And I think he mentions it to her to kind of "feel out" her feelings about having children as well as her reaction to him having an opinion about her potential as a mother. He may not admit to himself yet that he's in love with her, but it's obvious that he's personally invested in her plans to have or not have children. He seems almost panicked when she says she guesses "they'll never know". The tone in his voice when he shoots back, "What do you mean?!" reminds me of the tone when she said she didn't believe in God: "How can you NOT?!" It goes beyond just being surprised that a person feels/believes differently from him. If it was Jerguson saying these things, he wouldn't care. It's because it's Maddie, the woman he doesn't even know he's in love with, that he gets so riled up about it. Even though I think it's subconscious at this point, David fears that Maddie's disbelief in God and doubts about having kids poses a threat to the future he could have with her. I think. I never thought about that. It is a good interpretation of this scene. Yes, it really seems David is testing the ground about Maddie's disposition on having children. They're not lovers yet, however his interest in the subject suggests he gave a lot of thought to the outside chance of building a family with Maddie. BTW........ In two occasions in the course of the episode David says she's........his wife!! ;D ;D ;D Talking about subconscious.......
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