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Post by jpen on Jun 16, 2009 20:50:24 GMT -5
1. What connection, if any, do you see between Nora Cooper's predicament, and Maddie and David's situation?I see a couple of links. First, Nora marries a guy at Mardi Gras after only “knowing” him a short while. Smacks of the entire Walter incident on the train, no? Second, upon the arrival of Charlie, she questions if the man she married is the man that is now at her door. Reminds me of the Pat Boone scenes where Maddie worries about a changed David. I may be completely off base here, but I am sure others on the forum will indeed take me to task. You are not off base at all!! In fact, you knocked it out of the park Gray! Nora Cooper was a lonely woman much in the same sense as Maddie, looking for companionship, love, etc. Only for Maddie these things have been there all along. She knows it and starts to actually admit it..."we are on this ladder....don't know where it leads...don't look down"...that little heart to heart with David was exactly what they needed--- an actual sincere discussion about themselves and how they feel. Could they have talked more about other issues? YES! but, this is ML folks! Gray---very nice avatar this evening---give the guy another star!! Agree with Gray and bees. Also, I think there's a connection in what Nora says about their time in New Orleans--that it was brief, but it left an indelible mark. David and Maddie's (physical) relationship was short--as far as we know for sure, it only lasted 3 1/2 weeks; they may have been "together" on some level after "Flesh Made Word," though the way David describes it in the car (as a "fling") makes that questionable. In any case, their fling/affair/whatever has affected both of them profoundly.
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Post by jpen on Jun 16, 2009 20:57:04 GMT -5
2. Anybody notice the mistake in the pool hall scene?Boy, ya got me! Other than the fact that it looks like Charlie hits in the 8 ball out of sequence and finishes with the 7 ball. OK, I have to confess, it's been a looooong time since my misspent youth, when I was known to log some time in a pool hall, so I may have this wrong, but: David approaches Charlie and asks if he'd like to play a game of 9-ball. 9-ball only uses balls 1-9, so the rack looks like a diamond. Clearly, they've racked all the balls, as you would for a game of 8-ball. Also, in 9-ball, you have to sink the balls in order, so he should've finished with the 9. And even if they had been playing 8-ball, you're right--if Charlie sunk the 8 when there were other balls on the table, he would automatically lose. Just another example, to me, of sloppy production values--surely there was somebody on the set who knew these rudimentary rules and could point them out!!
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Post by jpen on Jun 16, 2009 21:00:40 GMT -5
3. We know that David thinks he knows Maddie better than anyone. In what ways does Maddie show she knows David "like the front of her hand" in this episode? This is a good question because I think this reveals more about how Maddie has changed...or how David has "filled in her blanks". And how she may have actually considered or come to terms with the fact that she could actually make a life with someone like David. She states that she is going to be more accepting of David and his office flaws, quirks, etc. And she also says later that she knows why David is being glib about the status of their relationship. She knows he wants more while trying to hide it behind the glibness. Agree (again), bees. There's a confidence in Maddie's dealings with David that I don't think we've seen before--a sense that she knows what makes him tick. I find it so interesting that she doesn't go mano a mano with him in the car when he's detailing her "Seven"--she doesn't find it necessary to prove that she could make some assumptions about his sexual history if she wanted to (or maybe she just thought the car ride wouldn't be long enough... ).
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graycav56
3rd Level
I can't imagine not rewatching with you next week.
Posts: 948
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Post by graycav56 on Jun 16, 2009 21:01:41 GMT -5
5.1 OBJECT OF THE GAME
Nine-Ball is played with nine object balls numbered one through nine and a cue ball. On each shot, the first ball the cue ball contacts must be the lowest numbered ball on the table, but the balls need not be pocketed in order. If a player pockets any ball on a legal shot, he remains at the table for another shot, and continues until missing, committing a foul, or winning the game by pocketing the 9-ball. After a miss, the incoming player must shoot from the position left by the previous player, but after any foul the incoming player may start with the cue ball anywhere on the table. Players are not required to call any shot. A match ends when one of the players has won the required number of games.
Gotta love the internet!
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Post by beesnbears on Jun 16, 2009 21:04:25 GMT -5
5: In this episode Maddie uses a word that makes me cringe: PALS! BLECH! LOL How do you feel about that word during their office talk in the beginning? Do you feel that that word could have been the undoing of the show? Who wanted to see M/D as PALS, we tuned into the show for their romance. 6: The loss of the baby just occurred 2 episodes ago but we didn't get any reference to what happened in this episode at all and none after for the rest of the season , do you feel there should have been a little more talk on the loss of the baby? Do you feel they acted the way they did in it because it was a way to avoid it? I think these two go together. In BAYAAHP Maddie tells David, "I don't think I will ever be the same. I don't think we will ever be the same." Was this a secret message from the writers? ;D Well, if it is really Maddie saying this, it is a very Maddie thing to say! She knows that losing the baby will be another hurdle for them and is not sure if they will make it. And neither is David. Yes, they should have addressed the issue and D/M should have talked more about it. This really irks me!! They spent all of that time in S4 with David getting ready to be there for MAddie when she comes home, they go through the Walter thing, then they lose a baby and deal with it by singing in the elevator.....Are we to believe that they did talk, but we didn't get to hear it? Gosh, that elevator scene could have been so much more! I agree with Rose and the PALS thing! Double BLECH!! The only way I can justify Maddie saying this is that what she was trying to tell David was she knows him like the back and front of her hand as well and not only are they in some kind of relationship that she can't really define, she also sees him as her best friend......that is not necessarily a bad thing! But like Agnes said...it does make it sound over.
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graycav56
3rd Level
I can't imagine not rewatching with you next week.
Posts: 948
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Post by graycav56 on Jun 16, 2009 21:06:09 GMT -5
That Dave coming up with a "count" of Maddie's past partners seems a bit, well, low for an international jet setting model who was at the top of her game in the late 60's and early 70's, the height of the sexual revolution.
I mean Dave only gave her "credit" for a solitary one night stand!
Somehow I think I am opening a can of worms here......
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Post by jpen on Jun 16, 2009 21:11:30 GMT -5
5.1 OBJECT OF THE GAME Nine-Ball is played with nine object balls numbered one through nine and a cue ball. On each shot, the first ball the cue ball contacts must be the lowest numbered ball on the table, but the balls need not be pocketed in order. If a player pockets any ball on a legal shot, he remains at the table for another shot, and continues until missing, committing a foul, or winning the game by pocketing the 9-ball. After a miss, the incoming player must shoot from the position left by the previous player, but after any foul the incoming player may start with the cue ball anywhere on the table. Players are not required to call any shot. A match ends when one of the players has won the required number of games. Gotta love the internet! Yay, gray! Thanks! ;D
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Post by beesnbears on Jun 16, 2009 21:13:44 GMT -5
One other thing that bugged me was when Maddie pulls up outside the pool hall. She KICKS the car door open. NOT very ladylike. Maddie takes care of her possessions and putting a heel to the door of a VERY expensive German Sports Coupe isn't in character. I have always noticed this as well. It almost looks like Cybill kind of fell out of character a moment and like something happened right before...like an argument over whether they shoot the scene like that or if David should come around to open the door for her or something. It is weird!
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Post by jpen on Jun 16, 2009 21:17:27 GMT -5
That Dave coming up with a "count" of Maddie's past partners seems a bit, well, low for an international jet setting model who was at the top of her game in the late 60's and early 70's, the height of the sexual revolution. I mean Dave only gave her "credit" for a solidary one night stand! Somehow I think I am opening a can of worms here...... Yep, pretty low, especially considering she's 36/7 years old...but it does accord with David's view of Maddie as being the Antispontaneity Queen. Though, to his credit, she does tell him in THH: "I don't just give myself to people...and when I do, if I do, it isn't like this, all wild and frenzied." It's an interesting question. This is just speculation, but I've always assumed that the sexual revolution did pass Maddie by, at least in terms of serial one-night stands...though I'd give her credit for a few more "flings" than David did!
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Post by beesnbears on Jun 16, 2009 21:22:31 GMT -5
That Dave coming up with a "count" of Maddie's past partners seems a bit, well, low for an international jet setting model who was at the top of her game in the late 60's and early 70's, the height of the sexual revolution. I mean Dave only gave her "credit" for a solidary one night stand! Somehow I think I am opening a can of worms here...... You know the mysteries of the honeyblonde noggin thing you mentioned? She could have a few!! That's why blondes are more fun!!
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Post by diane on Jun 16, 2009 21:26:18 GMT -5
Sorry guys...believe it or not, I just walked in from baseball.......we won!
Will rewatch and post in the AM.
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Post by beesnbears on Jun 16, 2009 21:33:50 GMT -5
This is just speculation, but I've always assumed that the sexual revolution did pass Maddie by, at least in terms of serial one-night stands...though I'd give her credit for a few more "flings" than David did! jpen
The SR passing Maddie by? Yep, I could see this too! While she doesn't like to think of giving herself to someone all wild and frenzied, I think she did so with David because she liked it and knew it would be safe...although, not that safe! ;D
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Post by jpen on Jun 16, 2009 21:35:11 GMT -5
5: In this episode Maddie uses a word that makes me cringe: PALS! BLECH! LOL How do you feel about that word during their office talk in the beginning? Do you feel thaTat that word could have been the undoing of the show? Who wanted to see M/D as PALS, we tuned into the show for thier romance.
6: The loss of the baby just occured 2 episodes ago but we didnt get any referance to what happened in this episode at all and none after for the rest of the season , do you feel there should have been a little more talk on the loss of the baby? Do you feel they acted the way they did in it because it was a way to avoid it?
Like gray, I think these q's go together. BLECH! is right on, rose--after all they've been through together, "PALS" (unless it has some hidden acronymic meaning....anyone??? ;D) doesn't do their relationship any kind of justice. For starters, it bleeds all the sexuality out of it, and I still think these two have chemistry going--it's certainly there in the pool hall scene.
I think the "PALS" thing is Maddie hedging her bets a little. If we want to assume that some continuity exists between this ep and YUK (which, frankly, is a stretch), then she's still not sure where David stands--he was ready, after all, to take off for Virginia. She's been through a horrible loss that they didn't really work through together, hymns in the hallway notwithstanding. I could see her not wanting to put herself out there until she gets more signals from him.
As far as "pals" being the undoing of the show, I agree with gray. It was a symptom of the wheels coming off the cart.
On to question 6: No way, no how did they deal with the loss of the baby appropriately. IMO, it should have been woven into the next few episodes at least--in fact, it could have been the catalyst for a new openness in their relationship. In fact, the "ladder" conversation is almost a teaser in that sense; Maddie is very direct with David, and if it had been built upon, it could've certainly led to a reconciliation.
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Post by manitobadesigner on Jun 16, 2009 22:00:25 GMT -5
5: In this episode Maddie uses a word that makes me cringe: PALS! BLECH! LOL How do you feel about that word during their office talk in the beginning? Do you feel that word could have been the undoing of the show? Who wanted to see M/D as PALS, we tuned into the show for their romance.Pals. Talk about throwing cold water on the hottest couple in television history! It is right up there with pact. No, WORSE, since this came much later. Was it the undoing of the show? Nah. That was an ongoing trend that we hashed over time and time again. It WAS however, one more lick on the envelope that sealed their doom. YES gray, you are oh-so-right. Didn't Maddie listen to ANYTHING Agnes had to say? Hello Maddie, this is the voice of reason calling! (and to think it's Agnes!)
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Post by manitobadesigner on Jun 16, 2009 22:06:08 GMT -5
I think the "PALS" thing is Maddie hedging her bets a little. If we want to assume that some continuity exists between this ep and YUK (which, frankly, is a stretch), then she's still not sure where David stands--he was ready, after all, to take off for Virginia. She's been through a horrible loss that they didn't really work through together, hymns in the hallway notwithstanding. I could see her not wanting to put herself out there until she gets more signals from him. As far as "pals" being the undoing of the show, I agree with gray. It was a symptom of the wheels coming off the cart. Jen, I never thought about the possibility of Maddie hedging her bets being the reason for the PALS debacle. God knows I've gone over and over it trying to figure out what her motivation would be, beyond just well...bad writing. But she should know David well enough by this point that he's not going to put himself out there either, that's the pattern of their communication. AGREE, wheel off the cart and rollin' down the hill.
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