marta
1st Level
Posts: 244
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Post by marta on Feb 13, 2024 17:45:03 GMT -5
Marlena! Hello! What a pleasure to hear from you! How are you?!
Yes, the Ramblings times… I had a blast. One of the very few things that were good during the pandemic.
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Post by Marlena on Feb 14, 2024 6:59:38 GMT -5
I think the most famous kiss at the end of ‘I am curious…Maddie’ (IACM, the one before rolling on the floor) is not done well. Hi Marta, can we discuss this? How is the kiss in IACM not done well? Do you mean it is not done well by the characters? The actors? The director? The writers? I am well, by the way. How are you?
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marta
1st Level
Posts: 244
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Post by marta on Feb 14, 2024 7:23:16 GMT -5
It is Cybill. She is static and expressionless. Bruce acts heightened emotions (open mouth, the head slightly tilted), she does not.
She could have been acting still angry at first for a second: pulling away (head tilted back) or lunging at him (head tilted towards him) and then let the tension go and become ‘receptive’, showing it in the shoulders at least, if not in the face. It can be done in profile and with arms and shoulder only. He is good, but Cybill is just standing there. It must have been done over many, many takes and this was the best from the lot, unfortunately.
This was my secret all along, in the Ramblings. I thought I would take it to my grave…
I am fine and very sleepy now. Good night. I expect a serious outrage here tomorrow.
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Post by Marlena on Feb 14, 2024 15:15:34 GMT -5
No serious outrage, at least not from me. It is likely there were many takes. I did read though... I think it was in Scott Ryan's book, that when they filmed Cybill's dance number which led up to the dream sequence kiss in BMOMS, she was only willing to do one, maybe two takes. I forget the exact number, but she definitely was not willing to do it over and over and over again. Maybe the same happened here. She was pregnant at the time. Who knows what the atmosphere was like in the room.
I liked the kiss. It worked for me. I don't care for some of the dialog that happens upstairs in her bedroom before the kiss. I don't like that she felt she had to lift up a lamp, or was it a vase?, as though she had to protect herself from him. I don't like that David says she's not worth forcing himself upon. I mean, is any woman worth a man forcing himself upon her? Is that such a thing? I guess it is if the man is willing to rape a woman and risk jail time. And then, she seems to get angry that he says she's not worth it!?!
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marta
1st Level
Posts: 244
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Post by marta on Feb 14, 2024 20:05:11 GMT -5
I’d better qualify it, I could only do as much in the longer post above.
It is not the kiss itself (which is good, mostly due to Bruce and his elbow crook), it is a prelude to the kiss, which I find grating. It breaks the mood for me; there is an emotional discontinuity from the heated exchange when they are shown from the front to the deflating profile shot. Yes, I remember, she refused to honour Stanley Donnen! Perhaps she knew that numerous takes were not going to improve her dance skills, rather the opposite? I hope I can shine a better light on the upstairs scene for you... on another occasion. Must go now!
(Feels like the old times…)
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Post by sandra on Feb 15, 2024 12:52:58 GMT -5
Hello Marta! He's another one missing ramblings. Definitely does feel like old times
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Post by Marlena on Feb 15, 2024 17:44:01 GMT -5
I hope I can shine a better light on the upstairs scene for you... on another occasion. Must go now! (Feels like the old times…) Marta, I would love for you to shine a better light on the upstairs bedroom scene. I can't wait to read your thoughts on the matter. I may not always agree, but you do make me think twice.
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Post by Marlena on Feb 15, 2024 17:45:19 GMT -5
Hello Marta! He's another one missing ramblings. Definitely does feel like old times Yay! Sandra's back! BTW, do you know how many posts one has to make to get bumped up to 2 stars? I always thought it was 250, but I'm at 256, I think. Must be 300.
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marta
1st Level
Posts: 244
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Post by marta on Feb 15, 2024 19:32:02 GMT -5
Well, well, Sandra. Hello. I trust you are OK…
I spotted NJJ logging in recently. Hi NJJ! (?) I did not say anything as I was unsure whether we were on or off.
Ryan K Michaels, still disguised as Boink, logged in the previous 24 hours too. My guess is that he left a private message to Ihate about banning him. So that is probably the end of Ihate activity on this board. Although, if you like analysis, Ihate, this is the place! (If I may say so). But where is Isyou? Still here? Please say something to keep the spirits up. You haven’t dived into the Ramblings and got discouraged, I hope? Marlena, I thought I assessed the levels thoroughly once (it was close to when Sandra got bumped up) and it was 250. We even tried to get you up to 250 on private messages some time ago. I noticed that you seem to have crossed the Rubicon recently but it must have been some other river! Anyway, checking again (just then) the 2nd level is somewhere between you now at 256 and snappysara at 283. We shall see. I must stop posting long posts. Where would I be had I posted my essays in smaller portions?!
I am sorting out the upstairs bedroom situation in my head. I know what is going on (in my view of the show) but it is difficult to explain clearly.
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Post by Marlena on Feb 17, 2024 20:46:40 GMT -5
Marta, are you still here? I am looking forward to hearing your thoughts on that bedroom scene.
Are you thinking that Maddie is turned on by the fight?
Are you thinking that David is manipulating her?
Don't make me wait much longer please...
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marta
1st Level
Posts: 244
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Post by marta on Feb 17, 2024 21:32:18 GMT -5
I am still around. What else!!?
A longish discussion is being composed. I cannot contribute so often as in the past.
I am very happy that you are interested!
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Post by Marlena on Feb 17, 2024 22:41:14 GMT -5
I promise, I'll be patient 😊
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marta
1st Level
Posts: 244
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Post by marta on Feb 18, 2024 23:55:46 GMT -5
The rape which wasn’t
You read suggestions of rape in the scene because rapes are everywhere these days . Rape is rape, almost rape is rape and a bad date is rape. We have to muddle through it somehow. It is necessary as a lot of societal cleansing is required and it is good that it is happening. Would be better if there was less hysteria and more enlightened comment about how sex is rarely simple and human relations are diabolically complex, but never mind.
Once upon a time
As Al Jarreau almost sings in After All: There, there was a time I knew, when no matter come what may no can mean yes, la la la la. And this time was still firmly in place in 1985 to 1989. Those were much more nuanced times than today in terms of what was allowed on the screen. We have examples of no meaning yes in the very ML too, of course. So in the bedroom upstairs DA must ascertain whether this is a no-no or a no-yes situation. He does and it is (hmmm… sexy?) a part of a build up to an absolute climax (pun intended) and final resolution. There is so much that is going on in that bedroom that viewers’ heads may be spinning. Unfortunately, these days, our attention and trigger words are different than in 1987. Consequently, this part of the scene, relatively unimportant in my view, sticks out too much. I hope that presented like below any suggestion of rape is softened into insignificance.
A slight detour
There is a scene early in NSM, at the station concourse. M asks ‘are you talking to me?’. It is an unnecessary scene and I thought it was done only to quote from the you-know-what. But now I think there is more. It is obvious that D talks to M so he replies sarcastically ‘no, I am talking to this bum over here’. This shows us his attitude to explaining himself when he thinks situation should be obvious. Her q was rhetorical and the situation trivial in the NSM, but his attitude there is indicative of his attitude in general and his reactions throughout the show, I think.
The IACM bedroom situation, according to Marta
Now, the IACM bedroom situation. There is a clash of realities here, I think. They are in the same room in the same situation, but their realities are different.
M is turned on because she got mentally ready for making love with ‘the best thing that happened to her’ to let it go and achieve closure. She says something (only partially true) in the dark - this is all a prep for parting with The Best Thing and geared towards that purpose.
Then it all goes off the rails. [She is still turned on (because she is always turned on when D is about and now he is wearing loose shorts, xst!)]. D has invaded her privacy, has a smirk implying ‘I have won’ and ‘I know what is in your head’ and does not say even a single right word. He says instead ‘I don’t have to say anything’. She has a big picture in mind – the past few days were about her and her future, not a hot sex with one of them there and then. She tries to explain her point of view, she is not a prize for a winner of a gladiatorial contest. She will make the decisions. But D ignores all that, instead makes an assumption, which she cannot tolerate and which is that his usual ‘dance with me’ trick is going to work again. As soon as he gets close she will melt (with a whimper, like Rita Adams did), because he knows that she is turned on by him.
So she says ‘no’ again, grabs a vase to show him that she really means ‘no’ (she is M, not Rita).
His reality is simpler than hers to the point of being simplistic. He has won, the rival is gone. He just heard that she loves him. Since ‘you know it and I know it’ (it being that they want each other, or love each other - it is forever debatable), what is there to say? In his mind, she is fighting passion but really she wants him to prevail, so he gets closer and closer, building tension. They will be making love (or having sex, take you pick) in a moment, he is sure.
But she says ‘no’ again, grabs a vase and there is another ‘no’. The realities clashed. Now, D understands this is really ‘no’ in his reality. He has to withdraw (hmmm…) his impudent attentions somehow, saving face. He has to say something. First, instinctively, there is reassurance (as he got physically very close and he is larger), but she has not been concerned about him ‘forcing himself on her’ as she knows him too well, he is not this type of guy (and this is not this type of show in family viewing time). Then there is a bit of vindictiveness and expression of frustration on his part: ‘you are not worth it’; not worth all the trouble, all the drama, all the trying so hard to no avail for years. He implies it upstairs and then says it outright downstairs - ‘I am sick of it…’. He was so close to having her and she still said ‘no’. He has to put his trousers on and go away. He has been rejected and he is furious.
Now back to her reality. He has been so ridiculous that there is no accepting his advances (he may just as well say: ‘hop on the bed next to me and spread your legs’) without losing self-respect (and his respect, to be honest, perhaps not immediately but eventually). Instead of saying something, anything nice and to the purpose, he expects that she is to read his mind and then he says she is not worth any extra effort.
Her hackles go up at this stupidity, she has to vent her frustration - which is basically at the fact that he is who he is. They have the shouting match across the social divide with her high up on the stairs and him down in the bargain basement. But she follows downstairs to keep going with the argument because she wants him – this merchandise, the rough diamond. This continuation of the argument follows the premise from TDSART “oh, yah (ironically, in response to Mrs Adams saying ‘I do not like you’), so why are you still here talking to me?’ Consequently, the exchange of insults downstairs and the slaps do not really matter to him – by then D knows for sure ‘you want me there, Mrs Adams, and not to rehearse’. Indeed…
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Post by Marlena on Feb 19, 2024 1:29:29 GMT -5
This is wonderful, Marta. Thank you for taking the time to write it. I read it once, but I will have to read it again tomorrow. There is a lot here to think about. I do agree with you, but I will let you know if I have any questions or comments.
It's late here. I'm off to bed.
Oh, I just noticed... I have my two stars now. Must be a delayed response to my 250th post.
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Post by sandra on Feb 21, 2024 13:51:27 GMT -5
Hey Marta,
I'm doing okay. And you?
As for your analysis on the bedroom scene; I think it's spot on. One of the reasons why these two can never seem to make it work is because there is no real communication. Sure, there are a lot of words flying around, but nobody really says anything that's important. If only Maddie would put down her walls.. If only David would be a little less cocky (I do agree with Maddie on that part in this scene). I have no problem with warming these two up with a little fighting. Things did get a bit excessive here with the whole "I'm not going to force myself on you" and Maddie's continuous slapping (Really? Once wasn't enough to make your point?). In the end, while there was a lot of passion, there was something missing. Think back to that scene in the hotel room in New York. Think back to the trunk in David's apartment. That's what was missing here. Something genuine.
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