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Post by notjuanjones on Feb 26, 2024 16:04:34 GMT -5
It is wonderful to see you all posting here again! I enjoy MoonlightingStrangers and post there as well, but really loved the back and forth with you all during the pandemic. Give me a moment to catch up!
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marta
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Post by marta on Feb 26, 2024 19:03:58 GMT -5
Hi NJJ! Long time no nothing!
I don’t think we can ever capture the pandemic exuberance, but let’s try for even better (if posted less frequently) banter. I am always available to disagree, if this is what is missing in youse lives.
Isyou, are you there? I know it is difficult to join a group where people already know each other but I encourage you to do just that (I think Ihate is lost to this board already. Busy writing the next 1500 film reviews, I bet).
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Post by notjuanjones on Feb 26, 2024 20:56:56 GMT -5
Wow, Marta, you brought the fire again! And, as always, there's much with which I agree, and some with which I don't. Which, again, is wonderful. That's what a discussion board – and, life in general – should be about: discussing, occasionally disagreeing, but often going 'that's a good point; I hadn't thought about that.' I said this many times in 2020 and '21: what a boring world it would be if we agreed on everything.
I would never – ever – be so presumptuous as to think I know what it's like to be a woman, in any context, and certainly not in a sexual one. I defer, always, to women on this topic in particular. My concern was deepened a few years ago, when a good friend of mine who went to college with me disclosed that she had been raped (not at school; this happened many years later, not that that should make any difference). It unnerved me. I'm sure I know a lot of women who've been raped, but she was the first to say so. This made me wonder if women at our alma mater had felt unsafe while in school. I e-mailed some women friends who had attended our school, and asked if the men in our time were predatory. They said no, but I still was a little unmoored.
One really good friend put it to me this way: young men and women are expected to deal with their emerging sexuality much differently to fit into societal norms. Young women are "supposed" to be reluctant, and need convincing, while young men are "supposed" to be proactive and persuasive. And thus it is easy for young men to believe they are merely being persuasive when they are, in fact, being aggressive and forceful. Add alcohol and/or drugs, and things can get out of hand, quickly. She also noted that men don't know or understand what it is like to be sexualized, via proposition, verbal remarks, etc., from a very young age, as most women are, sometimes well before the onset of puberty, etc. I say all of this to say that I accept the general parameters of your argument, which (I believe; correct me if I'm wrong) is that this scene could be construed as rape – or, at the least, waaaayyyy too close to it – on David's part.
Certainly, David's silent smirk as Maddie realizes that it is he and not Sam in her bed can be construed as conquest. There is the literal absence of Sam in the bed/bedroom, but there is also the admission on Maddie's part that she loves David (and, Sam – but Sam is no longer there). What convinces me that you're onto something is the verbal – and then, physical – violence of this scene, on both Maddie's and David's parts. He is, indeed, furious that she is, again, rejecting him, for what he believes are illogical reasons, and begins screaming at her. She indeed picks up a vase in advance of David's "forcing himself" on her, then slaps him, incredibly hard, twice, after he calls her, yet again, a bitch. David then catches a third attempted slap, and we know the rest.
My only disagreement is this. All that we've known and seen from David over the two-plus seasons leading into this S3 arc paints a pretty consistent picture of him – chauvinistic, to be sure; arrogant, occasionally obnoxious. But there was, also, a very clear moral streak in him. He is appalled when Maddie tells her she's an athiest (this was an especially nasty thing for the writers to do to Cybill Shepherd and the character; I've always felt that episode was the writers' taking their frustrations with CS over the previous seasons out on the character). He is, clearly, a pretty strong Catholic, as evidenced in ACGANSG and other episodes. Thus I think David not only knows right from wrong, even when angry and frustrated, or madly in love, but has very deep-seated notions of good and evil. His "I'm not going to force myself on you" is thin gruel upon which to build this supposition, I admit, but I do nonetheless believe he would not willingly assault a woman if she was not on board.
Again, though, I accept the general premise of your argument, as much as it lessens the emotional impact of the scene – which was the high point of the series. But 50-plus year-old me is not supposed to think about the world the same as 21-year-old me did.
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marta
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Post by marta on Feb 27, 2024 5:08:58 GMT -5
Already written in response to Sandra’s post, before NJJ joined in…
Well, ‘I am not going to force (…)’ is, in my view, a resolution of the previous situation, but slapping – twice! is something else. Yes, for our 2024 eyes it is excessive, but then slapping was happening on screen (and off, I guess) all the time. D does not react to the first slaps so she tries it again. Marlena may be right – M may be turned on by fighting and her own violent excesses! M learned to express her desire for him in a physical and violent manner over the years, attacking him as often as situation allowed in the past. She is so fired up here that she must express it somehow - shake him out of his passive reaction to the first two slaps and bring the crisis on. And then, there is also a genuine frustration with him being himself and hating herself for wanting him at all (and so badly). The whole bag of conflicting emotions!
As I said, I do not think it is acted all that well on Cybill’s part (her lines on the stairs lose momentum a bit, her face is too composed when she slaps him), unfortunately. But overall this is the best TV there ever was. Nothing is simple, little is explained, you have to work at it to understand it and even if one is understanding very little, it is so hot. Rolling on the floor in the throes of passion on the tv screen 37 years ago! Ha!
As somebody said on this board, their ‘getting together’ could not be any different after years of volatility. This is a good point. I agree with Sandra that something is missing there. A lot is missing actually, if one is looking for expressions of love. This is not it. This is pure physical passion. Whether it originates from love and whether the love is mutual we are to find out later on (or not… ha ha ha).
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marta
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Post by marta on Feb 27, 2024 5:10:03 GMT -5
In response to NJJ’s post
I agree with your attitude to discussions, in general and in particular our disagreements on this board. I must curb my teasing and we should be right as rain from now on. On the subject of ‘forcing himself’ in IACM – close but no cigar. It was Marlena who thought that it smacked of rape, I did not have such impression at all. I tried to explain this part of the scene as D aiming to get out of the situation saying something, whatever but to the purpose. I even said that ‘he is not this type of guy’. So we (NJJ and Marta) do agree in our assessment of D in that respect. Where I would still argue (still, because I argued that with full conviction in the past) is that you overestimate D’s religious beliefs. He gets worked up about ‘temptation’ of a priest but I feel there may be something else in there than strong religious beliefs (a subject for discussion!). With M being an atheist, well, this sits with me OK. D and M religious beliefs are opposite what would be expected by viewers before the concerned episode so it fits with the show in general. They discussed everything, including money, certainly sex, so they should discuss religion as well. They did not discuss their politics – this was very wise on the part of creators.
It feels weird and nice to be writing and posting. I did not think I would be doing it again. Thanks for being around NJJ, you are a good sparring partner!
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Post by sandra on Feb 27, 2024 13:16:21 GMT -5
Hey NJJ!
So good of you to come over here and discuss. I feel like this board is more of a discusssion/debate about the show (which I love), whereas the other board is more about devotion to Moonlighting. Nothing wrong with either, but I do miss the sparring sometimes. It's a good thing there can be a little bit of both!
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Post by notjuanjones on Feb 29, 2024 19:26:03 GMT -5
Hey NJJ! So good of you to come over here and discuss. I feel like this board is more of a discusssion/debate about the show (which I love), whereas the other board is more about devotion to Moonlighting. Nothing wrong with either, but I do miss the sparring sometimes. It's a good thing there can be a little bit of both! Exactly so, Sandra. I really, really enjoyed talking about the show with everyone here – characters, actors, writers, plots, all of it. The other boards are terrific in their own ways, but I had and have a soft spot for this one.
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marta
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Post by marta on Mar 1, 2024 5:56:15 GMT -5
Well, since I’d disclosed that I thought Cybill’s acting was a bit lame in the Big Bang scene and I did not have my head bitten off I am going to risk even more disclosures.
There are two more sex scenes where I fault her acting. The first is grunt/whine/whimper (I have seen and heard many words used to describe it) as Rita in TDSART. The whimper, which a lot of people seem to be impressed by (sorry!), to me, should be either more ‘I am horrified, but do not want to make a scene’ or already closer to a moan – ‘I am not able to resist and I like it’. What she utters is neither. I am trying to think how to find the sound I would prefer on UTube to give you an audio example but nothing comes to mind and if I sit on it longer I may never post about it (which may be just as well, if you like it, ha ha ha). The second example is ‘Oh, David’ in the car before it rolls down the street at the end of THH. This one is terrible. She sounds like mocking romantic scenes not being in one. Oh dear. Ruins the scene for me. This should be delivered in a breathy, sultry, smoky voice. It would be such a good contrast with the follow up when they realise that the car is already rolling. And don’t tell me she is giggling or playful because it does not fit the character, Annie could be like, that not M.
Well, so this is off my chest now. I am sure you think differently. And, I must add, there are romantic scenes in ML that, when watching, I think of the scene and I am not distracted by her acting - meaning it’s all good. Over to you…
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Post by notjuanjones on Mar 1, 2024 17:49:43 GMT -5
I can only speak for myself, Marta.
You may well be right that CS didn't "hit her marks," shall we say, in those scenes.
I didn't watch ML for four-plus years expecting Katherine Hepburn or Streep to bust out onscreen, chewing the scenery alongside Bruce. My motivations for watching Cybill, and Maddie, were more...quotidian.
I'm guessing Cybill would acknowledge that she wasn't the greatest actress in the world. For some reason, 21-year-old me didn't care very much. For that matter, neither does 50-plus-year-old me. ;-)
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marta
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Post by marta on Mar 1, 2024 23:00:53 GMT -5
Oh how I laughed! It was 2021 all over again.
I freely admit that I am not above perving on DA. And when watching I barely pay attention to structure, continuity, coherence of the mystery etc. As long as the episode bubbles along I am happy. Rarely something vexes me and only then I start thinking about what it is exactly and why it grates. For example, I would have never picked up on their BMW being in two places at once, as it apparently is the case in many episodes. It is irrelevant to me. It is like a wink from behind the fourth wall. It is just a show – if the story rings true the rest is just a theatre with cardboard scenery. To prove to you that I am not fault finding with CS acting and love scenes - I love the scene after they won in the casino and sit on the floor in MTMW. She is so charming (her playful air snapping, so unexpected and lovely), he is so seductive. You may say, this is not actually a love scene as they are in a public space. OK then, my favourite is the homage to Body heat; hot and short (which makes it hotter). You can find the clip of actual Body heat scene and compare how K Turner acts – she acts clearly aroused by WH breaking the window. Cybill is more passive and put off… She may be trying not to copy the earlier movie too closely, but think the actress is telling her character’s own feelings, which are more ambivalent: ‘I want him, this is what he would do under circumstances, but I do not like violent gestures, why does everything have to be so heightened all the time?’ Any thoughts on that?…
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marta
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Posts: 244
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Post by marta on Mar 6, 2024 21:57:47 GMT -5
peep
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Post by Marlena on Mar 7, 2024 8:37:55 GMT -5
Hi Marta, I am here. I apologize for my recent disappearance as my hormones seemed to have sent me into "blah mode" for a couple of weeks, but now I am feeling better. I will comment on the last few posts. Your post on the IACM bedroom scene was perfect in my opinion. I just read through it again for probably the fifth time, and I agree with all of it, including how loose David's shorts were. 😳 But seriously, I do believe David telling Maddie she's not worth it is his way of saving face. He's not going to hurt her and she knows it. I think for these two to get together there had to be some sort of fighting or violence, but I hate to use that word. Maddie wasn't going to go to him quietly. It wasn't going to happen that way. The fighting fueled the passion, at least it did the first time. And my guess, many times thereafter. Sandra is right in that it would have been nice if we got to see some tenderness between them, but I think the sweet smile on Maddie's face at the end and the way David is looking at her says a lot about how emotionally connected they were to each other in that moment. This was not just about sex, it was about love... and sex. NJJ - your post was wonderful. I always appreciate when a man does not presume he knows what it's like to be a woman. I certainly don't know what it's like to be a man. I like what your friend told you about how a woman needs convincing and a man needs to be persuasive. That played out here in the bedroom scene. And, definitely... the writers were nasty to Cybill at times all throughout the series. Having Maddie be an atheist didn't really surprise or bother me. I know she's not the type that would go to church and she says she doesn't believe, but I think there are little moments where she considers it, like when she goes to confession. I never got the impression that her parents were religious, so maybe she wasn't raised that way. Marta, I can see what you mean about Cybill's face being sort of expressionless in the scene when she slaps him, but maybe that's supposed to be read as shock, like she can't believe what is happening. Someone posted a fan-made video of this scene on Facebook recently and she edited it in such a way that when David grabs her wrist, Maddie moves forward, and then backward, and then foreword again. Just that little bit of backward movement, that hesitation made all the difference. Agree about the "Oh, David" in THH. Disagree about the whimper in TDSART. Where I have a hard time with the acting is in the Big Man On Mulberry dance sequence. Neither actors are dancers. Sometimes I have a hard time watching that scene. I feel bad saying that because people love that episode, and I do, too. But the dancing, oh my 🙄. I read somewhere that Cybill would only do one or two takes of that scene. I don't blame her. I doubt it would've gotten any better. She made up for it later on in the episode where she's sitting on the bed when David walks into his hotel room. I'd give her all the Emmy's for that scene.
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marta
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Post by marta on Mar 11, 2024 6:46:01 GMT -5
Quoting from my earlier post on 15 Feb: "Yes, I remember, she refused to honour Stanley Donnen! Perhaps she knew that numerous takes were not going to improve her dance skills, rather the opposite?"
I think it must have been very challenging for BW to dance with the pros. He seems still embarrassed by his dancing when commenting in one of those anniversary programs on UTube. Unnecessarily so, in my view – I think he has done well there. Cybill less so but I still would not cringe. And her part is so short! It would have been better to eliminate the moment when her right foot is caught when dragged but if she wanted no more takes it serves her right and we have to put up with it.
On a lighter note…
This may be a very (very) late observation, but I do not think I’d seen it mentioned on this board. It’s just occurred to me, apropos nothing in particular, that the dreaded Annie is styled to look like Bonnie Bedeilla, the actress playing the hero’s wife in the Die Hard. It cannot be a coincidence. A good joke, I think.
Madolyn Addison, played by Kim Cattrall, is a make-up mogul in a 2023 TV series Glamorous. I did not watch it, but it was available here in Au. It wasn’t renewed beyond the first season. Apparently, it wasn’t very good. A good joke with the name I think.
ML is still not streaming in Au…
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marta
1st Level
Posts: 244
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Post by marta on Mar 21, 2024 18:31:27 GMT -5
A standoff. Who will blink first?
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Post by mlbinger on Mar 24, 2024 8:18:37 GMT -5
Oh how I laughed! It was 2021 all over again. I freely admit that I am not above perving on DA. And when watching I barely pay attention to structure, continuity, coherence of the mystery etc. As long as the episode bubbles along I am happy. Rarely something vexes me and only then I start thinking about what it is exactly and why it grates. For example, I would have never picked up on their BMW being in two places at once, as it apparently is the case in many episodes. It is irrelevant to me. It is like a wink from behind the fourth wall. It is just a show – if the story rings true the rest is just a theatre with cardboard scenery. To prove to you that I am not fault finding with CS acting and love scenes - I love the scene after they won in the casino and sit on the floor in MTMW. She is so charming (her playful air snapping, so unexpected and lovely), he is so seductive. You may say, this is not actually a love scene as they are in a public space. OK then, my favourite is the homage to Body heat; hot and short (which makes it hotter). You can find the clip of actual Body heat scene and compare how K Turner acts – she acts clearly aroused by WH breaking the window. Cybill is more passive and put off… She may be trying not to copy the earlier movie too closely, but think the actress is telling her character’s own feelings, which are more ambivalent: ‘I want him, this is what he would do under circumstances, but I do not like violent gestures, why does everything have to be so heightened all the time?’ Any thoughts on that?… Sitting in the hall at the casino is one of my favorite scenes. He grabs her hand and kisses it. Instead of kissing her. And he helps her win her money back. Which he knows is important to her. Of course, in true DA fashion, he folds a winning hand so she can’t sell the agency. LOL. And gets stuck in Buenas Aires. in regard to IACM, Maddie was calmly giving herself to a night of blah goodbye sex with Sam. Then David grabs her under the sheets. Now she’s mad and embarrassed. And he’s heard her say she loves him. And he won’t give an inch because he’s still hurt from finding Sam at her door. So for these two? All the door slamming. All the fuming. All the ADDISON! It makes sense that anger would fuel their passion. It’s part of who they are. JMHO.
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