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Post by beesnbears on Apr 27, 2010 19:55:36 GMT -5
3. During all of Alex's scenes in this episode, I really starting thinking about the similarities between he and David...and, in particular, how David might handle a conflict like this with his own daughter. Any thoughts?
Well, I didn't see David handling his own daughter, I saw David handling Maddie like Alex, wanting to "just make things right" and "make whatever it is that's bothering her go away."
Especially when Alex says " My daughter is 36 years old, CEO of her own comapany and drives an expensive car. She's running away from something or someone, I just know it!" Boy he had that right. And I can hear David saying the exact same thing!
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graycav56
3rd Level
I can't imagine not rewatching with you next week.
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Post by graycav56 on Apr 27, 2010 19:56:29 GMT -5
4. Agnes is so great in her first scene: "You know how it is sometimes when you try everything you think of to make something happen, only nothing you do works?" What do you think is David's state of mind after this conversation, and after discovering MacGillicudy and Viola in Maddie's office?
I loved Dave as he reverted back to him being the bedrock of Blue Moon and raising Agnes' morale. He knew that Maddie was now a pivotal part of their collective success, and that if HE gave up hope of her ever returning...well...it would be the end of Camelot. He could not let that happen.
Him seeing the continual conflict between Viola and Magillicuddy only gave him a hint of what was to come if Maddie did indeed decide to never return. He saw the loss of all he had built in the past three years, and pondered this in his office when Bert came in.
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graycav56
3rd Level
I can't imagine not rewatching with you next week.
Posts: 948
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Post by graycav56 on Apr 27, 2010 20:00:13 GMT -5
6. The towel scene is, in my opinion, Herbert Viola's shining (if drippy) moment. Any comments on his speech and David's reaction?
Bert indeed did a great job there, explaining why he was leaving that SMOKIN' babe alone in the hot tub. I was proud of the man. His speech was heartfelt and well delivered.
While WE, the audience saw the parallels between them and Dave/Maddie, Dave obviously did not. He considers his relationship with Miss Hayes on a completely different level than the Bert/Agnes duo, and considering the complexity involved, he is probably correct.
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Post by beesnbears on Apr 27, 2010 20:00:28 GMT -5
4. Agnes is so great in her first scene: "You know how it is sometimes when you try everything you think of to make something happen, only nothing you do works?" What do you think is David's state of mind after this conversation, and after discovering MacGillicudy and Viola in Maddie's office?
When David gets off the elevator I think he is keeping his chin up for the rest of the office, coming to work on time, really working and just trying to be ready when Maddie comes home. Agnes says exactly how he feels, though. He is doing everything Maddie said, no calls, no going after her, just staying there and trying everything HE can think of to make her come home.
Then, he is heartbroken that it wasn't her in the office the Wobblies were eavedropping on and really just annoyed that he fell for Agnes's assumption that it was Maddie.
The last straw for him is when he goes to Maddie's house to get her mail and he hears her getting her messages....P.O'd!!
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graycav56
3rd Level
I can't imagine not rewatching with you next week.
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Post by graycav56 on Apr 27, 2010 20:06:37 GMT -5
7. What about David's thoughts at the end, as he walks down that nearly deserted boulevard?
His first thought was "Where the hell are all the taxi's at 3 am?" After that, I am sure he was full of thoughts. Obviously flush with the victory over the Twinkie at the bar and the resultant feeling of satisfaction...comparing that with the feelings in his HEART with the same physical acts with Maddie.
His interaction with the homeless guy seemed to be an act of penance for his sins. He gave away his worldly goods..his money and his coat..to atone for his indiscretions. At least an attempt to cleanse his soul.
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Post by beesnbears on Apr 27, 2010 20:14:40 GMT -5
5. What does the "Steak a la Dave" phone message tell us about the state of David and Maddie's relationship before she left? Do you think this supports or conflicts with what we saw in "Trip to the Moon"?
I think he thought everything was perfect, or mostly perfect. I'm sure he knew Maddie was feeling a little iffy about things since their relationship apparently was very secretive per, I'm assuming, Maddie's request.
Are we to assume that the message was left after their date in the laundry mat? If so, then David was totally in the dark as to how she felt when she left that night. The second message is obviously after she had been gone all day, not showing up for work, etc..
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Post by beesnbears on Apr 27, 2010 20:18:27 GMT -5
7. What about David's thoughts at the end, as he walks down that nearly deserted boulevard?His first thought was "Where the hell are all the taxi's at 3 am?" After that, I am sure he was full of thoughts. Obviously flush with the victory over the Twinkie at the bar and the resultant feeling of satisfaction...comparing that with the feelings in his HEART with the same physical acts with Maddie. His interaction with the homeless guy seemed to be an act of penance for his sins. He gave away his worldly goods..his money and his coat..to atone for his indiscretions. At least an attempt to cleanse his soul. Wow!! I have never thought of the atonement thing! Very nice Gray!
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graycav56
3rd Level
I can't imagine not rewatching with you next week.
Posts: 948
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Post by graycav56 on Apr 27, 2010 20:19:22 GMT -5
5. What does the "Steak a la Dave" phone message tell us about the state of David and Maddie's relationship before she left? Do you think this supports or conflicts with what we saw in "Trip to the Moon"? I think he thought everything was perfect, or mostly perfect. I'm sure he knew Maddie was feeling a little iffy about things since their relationship apparently was very secretive per, I'm assuming, Maddie's request. Are we to assume that the message was left after their date in the laundry mat? If so, then David was totally in the dark as to how she felt when she left that night. The second message is obviously after she had been gone all day, not showing up for work, etc.. Good read. Either that was an old message she kept on the answering machine and never erased it for sentimental reasons, or he was indeed clueless as to the depth of the issues she had.
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graycav56
3rd Level
I can't imagine not rewatching with you next week.
Posts: 948
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Post by graycav56 on Apr 27, 2010 20:25:16 GMT -5
8. Why does Maddie leave that message for Agnes? Would she have told David about the pregnancy if he had answered the phone?
I figure Maddie immediately figured it was Dave's, and thought he should know. But the answering machine message gave her pause, both with its tone, and because I am sure she didn't want to tell HIM that in that manner. I still don't think she would have spilled THOSE beans to him, even personally, over Ma Bell, however.
She obviously didn't have those misgivings about leaving the message with Agnes. I figure we can debate if she KNEW Agnes would not be able to keep that secret, thereby using her as a third party to let Dave in on the big news, or actually believed she would maintain her silence. Either way, she HAD to tell somebody or else we, the viewers wouldn't know, eh?
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Post by beesnbears on Apr 27, 2010 20:28:24 GMT -5
6. The towel scene is, in my opinion, Herbert Viola's shining (if drippy) moment. Any comments on his speech and David's reaction? I think it is brilliant writing! Herbert is used in the same sense as Agnes has been used before: to tell us what M/D are thinking or feeling or even what WE are feeling!
I believe David completely agrees with Bert, but the one he loves left for an extended stay in Chicago without saying good-bye, calling, writing....if the circumstances were different then....they would be VERY different!! ;D
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Post by beesnbears on Apr 27, 2010 21:09:41 GMT -5
8. Why does Maddie leave that message for Agnes? Would she have told David about the pregnancy if he had answered the phone?
I think she really intended to call David, maybe not necessarily to tell him she was pregnant, but she actually wanted to hear his voice and she knew she owed him a call by then. Annoyed by getting his machine, she either chickened out at the last minute because she was going to tell him or she just didn't want to leave that kind of information on an answering machine. I like to think that she was actually happy she was pregnant at that moment and that she was confident that it was David's with the desire to hear David's reaction.
However, as we all know, the days went by and she had more time to contemplate the situation and her insecurities about everything rose to the surface.
Calling Agnes was of course a way for them to announce officially the pregnancy storyline, but also for plot development in the next few eps. And we HAD to hear Maddie say the words...at least I did!
Dang it David!! You should have been home to answer your phone!! ;D
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Post by jpen on Apr 28, 2010 15:43:51 GMT -5
First of all, WELCOME BACK, GRAY!!! ;D It hasn't been the same around here without you...and your avatars, this latest being a particularly shining example!! 2. Do you see any relationship between the brief movie clips, and Alex & Virginia's "turn the bed around" scene?OK, maybe this is just me, but what I was thinking about here is that the movie clips are all about love blooming ('cause even when she's breaking a golf club over her knee, you can tell ol' Katie still has the hots for Cary)...whereas Alex & Virginia's scene was a classic (and I think very real) portrait of long-married love. The whole thing just cracks me up: Alex so determined to find out what's wrong with Maddie, Virginia knowing that he's not going to get anywhere with it, their slight irritation with each other, culminating in this exchange: V: Help me turn the bed around. A: What? Why can't Carmelita do it in the morning? V: Carmelita has a bad back! A: Well, what about MY bad back?! V: Bend your knees. And he grumbles, but still gets up to help her. This kind of conversation has got to be taking place in bedrooms all over America...it's spot-on. But I digress (sorry! . For Maddie, the movie clips represent the stage that she and David are (and have been) in. But what Alex and Virginia have is that "middle ground" that she said she wanted in the laundromat--and what she doesn't know how to have with David. Does that make any sense?
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Post by jpen on Apr 28, 2010 15:52:16 GMT -5
5. What does the "Steak a la Dave" phone message tell us about the state of David and Maddie's relationship before she left? Do you think this supports or conflicts with what we saw in "Trip to the Moon"?I think it has to be a saved message, perhaps from a few nights before she left. I can't see David leaving that message for her while he's drinking orange juice in "Come Back Little Shiksa"--he's too clearly upset at how they left things the night before. To me, the message suggests that David and Maddie were more of a "couple" than she gave them credit for. He stops at the grocery store on the way home, buys a couple of steaks and some vino, and is going to make her a romantic picnic dinner--not exactly the picture Maddie paints in "Trip" of their relationship being confined to the bedroom (or the car...or whatever). The effect of it playing at this point, of course, is pretty heartbreaking--for David, and for us--as it reminds him of that brief period of happiness that now seems so elusive.
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Post by jpen on Apr 28, 2010 15:56:33 GMT -5
6. The towel scene is, in my opinion, Herbert Viola's shining (if drippy) moment. Any comments on his speech and David's reaction?
I don't have anything to add to bees' and gray's great comments, except to say that this was the moment I fell a little in love with Herbert Viola. His courage in rejecting petty revenge, and commitment to "working it out," is inspiring...as is his look of disappointment when David says "Don't worry about me."
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Post by beesnbears on Apr 28, 2010 21:30:57 GMT -5
First of all, WELCOME BACK, GRAY!!! ;D It hasn't been the same around here without you...and your avatars, this latest being a particularly shining example!! 2. Do you see any relationship between the brief movie clips, and Alex & Virginia's "turn the bed around" scene?OK, maybe this is just me, but what I was thinking about here is that the movie clips are all about love blooming ('cause even when she's breaking a golf club over her knee, you can tell ol' Katie still has the hots for Cary)...whereas Alex & Virginia's scene was a classic (and I think very real) portrait of long-married love. The whole thing just cracks me up: Alex so determined to find out what's wrong with Maddie, Virginia knowing that he's not going to get anywhere with it, their slight irritation with each other, culminating in this exchange: V: Help me turn the bed around. A: What? Why can't Carmelita do it in the morning? V: Carmelita has a bad back! A: Well, what about MY bad back?! V: Bend your knees. And he grumbles, but still gets up to help her. This kind of conversation has got to be taking place in bedrooms all over America...it's spot-on. But I digress (sorry! . For Maddie, the movie clips represent the stage that she and David are (and have been) in. But what Alex and Virginia have is that "middle ground" that she said she wanted in the laundromat--and what she doesn't know how to have with David. Does that make any sense? Makes great sense! You put all the little scenarios together perfectly. Seems like all of this is what Maddie was thinking, too. And she was probably wondering if it all made sense as well! And the "turning the mattress" conversation....been there done that!! ;D
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