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Post by beesnbears on Feb 3, 2009 16:46:40 GMT -5
Here are the Q’s to get you started. I know when I return tonight that my ML wobblies will have made me proud!! I have a little reward for you after the discussion gets going….it involves the script and missing scenes!! 1. What, if any, is the importance of showing an empty Blue Moon office and Agnes entering before everyone else on the first day back from vacation? 2. What do you think of Maddie’s little smile when she awakens? Contrast this look with the look she has when she enters the office after the wobblies. 3. Do you think Maddie spent her entire vacation in New York? And did she enjoy the time she was there? Did she actually meet up with friends and meet new ones? This is all speculation, I guess, but can be fun to think about!! 4. What do you make of David flat out lying to Maddie about spending the evening with his father? And why do you think Maddie let him continue in his little charade for so long before calling his hand? 5. David makes this comment at the pre-wedding reception about the age of his father’s future wife: “I don’t know. Richie and I were young and he was never interested in us.” We discussed David and his brother Richie’s relationship last week. Knowing what we know about those two and this telling comment, what inferences/speculations can we make about the relationship between all three of them? The way David is so uncomfortable around his father, what type of relationship do you think they have? 6. Why do you think Maddie is so curious about the woman David’s father is going to marry? 7. Once Maddie fully understood what the situation was with David and Stephanie, do you feel she was sympathetic and really tried to help him through this crisis of his or do you think she just did not understand him? What was her motivation for telling David he was being selfish, inconsiderate and childish? 8. What are your thoughts as to the meaning of the title of this episode? Bye ya’ll!! Have fun!!
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gorky
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Post by gorky on Feb 3, 2009 17:04:53 GMT -5
Hey, bees--great questions! I'll tackle 'em as coherent answers come to me. 3. Do you think Maddie spent her entire vacation in New York? And did she enjoy the time she was there? Did she actually meet up with friends and meet new ones? This is all speculation, I guess, but can be fun to think about!!IMO, Maddie definitely spent her vacation in New York--and, judging by her eagerness to get back to work and to see David, I think it was a pretty uneventful trip. I mean, she's obviously embarrassed by the banality of the whole thing--the shallowness--when she hears Agnes talk about reaching spiritual enlightenment on her little sejourn. And she plays along with David's comment about meeting new friends--"Counting the flight back?"--which, to me, indicates that she was chaste. If she'd actually persued any huge romance with a big bad city boy, I don't think she would've been so willing to joke about it with David. Plus, she admits to missing him (such a great moment)--I think she must've realized that life without David Addison is pretty dang boring.
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Post by italianbluemooner on Feb 3, 2009 17:12:11 GMT -5
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gorky
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Post by gorky on Feb 3, 2009 17:16:18 GMT -5
5. David makes this comment at the pre-wedding reception about the age of his father’s future wife: “I don’t know. Richie and I were young and he was never interested in us.”
We discussed David and his brother Richie’s relationship last week. Knowing what we know about those two and this telling comment, what inferences/speculations can we make about the relationship between all three of them?
The way David is so uncomfortable around his father, what type of relationship do you think they have?I think that the senior Addison is a good guy--a sweet guy, like Maddie says--who truly cares about his sons. But, judging by that first scene between the two Davids at Blue Moon, I don't think they had a very sturdy, close relationship growing up. David Sr. strikes me as the kind of guy who takes his business very seriously, who would spend nights working instead of spending time with his kids. He seems so awkward, so disconnected from his son that all he can think to talk about is his haircut, his tan. He also seems to have certain expectations about how David Jr. should act--he scolds him at the party for crawling around on the floor, and David's response to the yelling seems to indicate that he's been in this kind of situation before, with his father screaming at him: he seems uncomfortable and upset, like his father hit a nerve. David Sr. is kind of belittling towards his son in that bathroom scene--not hearing David out, just going on and on about what a fool he made of himself (and, by extension, his father). I think, growing up, David Jr. never felt as if he could act the way his father wanted him to; he always felt like a disappointment. Edit: Hey, IBM! As far as homework goes, this assignment ain't so bad. See you in a bit.
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Post by jpen on Feb 3, 2009 17:28:47 GMT -5
Hey, bees--great questions! I'll tackle 'em as coherent answers come to me. 3. Do you think Maddie spent her entire vacation in New York? And did she enjoy the time she was there? Did she actually meet up with friends and meet new ones? This is all speculation, I guess, but can be fun to think about!!IMO, Maddie definitely spent her vacation in New York--and, judging by her eagerness to get back to work and to see David, I think it was a pretty uneventful trip. I mean, she's obviously embarrassed by the banality of the whole thing--the shallowness--when she hears Agnes talk about reaching spiritual enlightenment on her little sejourn. And she plays along with David's comment about meeting new friends--"Counting the flight back?"--which, to me, indicates that she was chaste. If she'd actually persued any huge romance with a big bad city boy, I don't think she would've been so willing to joke about it with David. Plus, she admits to missing him (such a great moment)--I think she must've realized that life without David Addison is pretty dang boring. Welcome, gorky! Great to see you here--I've really enjoyed your posts on other threads...and I agree. Maddie definitely didn't have any "big adventures" in New York, and though David says he & Mexico go together like "Montezuma's & Revenge" (what a picture!), somehow I think this trip was probably different for him...I picture him, on the beach, watching all the little "gringettes" walk by and thinking how none of them can hold a candle to a certain honey blonde... I just love this scene! Maddie is amused, rather than angry, at his office escapades (though she still won't join in--more on that in question 2). I think she's secretly thrilled that he is so inquisitive about who she met, etc., and she seems genuinely interested in whether he had a good time. It's just a nice moment of acceptance between them, capped off by that sweet, OC "Missed you"...
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gorky
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Post by gorky on Feb 3, 2009 17:39:32 GMT -5
7. Once Maddie fully understood what the situation was with David and Stephanie, do you feel she was sympathetic and really tried to help him through this crisis of his or do you think she just did not understand him?
What was her motivation for telling David he was being selfish, inconsiderate and childish?
It's kind of funny to me that, although Maddie is quick to suggest that David once knew Stephanie in "a different capacity", David pretty much has to spell it out for her before she realizes that he'd actually slept with Stephanie. I think that, although Maddie's worldly in some ways--being a formerly famous model, I'm sure she's had certain...experiences--she is still, for lack of a better word, a prude. She can't bring herself to imagine David sleeping with his future step-mother, regardless of the circumstances that provoked it. She recoils as he tells the story about being the "itchiest pup in Philadelphia"; she's disgusted by the notion that he "won" Stephanie. To her mind, normal people, decent people, don't do things like that.
Which makes sense--Maddie's always been a judgemental sort. But I think her reaction to David's story goes a bit deeper than that. If I could digress just a little lot--I've got a pretty 'shippy explanation for this:
Maddie's probably been considering David as a romantic possibility since, at least, "Witness for the Execution". She's seen growth in him, a certain depth and maturity that she never would've guessed he'd be capable of. Despite herself, she's begun to warm up to the notion of being with him (whether she knows it or not; like I was saying over in the "Sam & Dave" thread, I think a lot of her reactions/responses to David are on a subconcious level). At any rate, she's got a soft spot for the guy. Hell, she went on a vacation to New York--a place she once felt at-home in, a place that she probably associates with her modeling years, a place that's fun--and yet she still missed David. Because David's starting to feel like home to her; she's starting to depend on him.
I think her reaction to David's night with Stephanie is driven both by disgust in David, and disappointment in him. And disappointment in herself, for allowing herself to develop feelings for a guy who would do such a sleazy thing. At any rate, I think Maddie willfully chooses to misunderstand David until he flat-out tells her the score--that he slept with Stephanie--because she refuses to believe he could be capable of something like that. She doesn't want to believe that she could possibly fall for a guy who could stoop so low.
And I think that's what drives her assessment of David, that he is selfish, inconsiderate, and childish: her own sense of who David is has been shattered, in some way. She let herself believe he was a good guy, and look what happened--he let her down.
This is kind of off-topic (this whole post, actually), but did anyone else think that Maddie and David seemed very couple-ish in this episode? Almost like they were married. David was dependent on Maddie (even consulting her during the wedding, to see if he should forever hold his peace), and Maddie was there for David, emotionally. They were both very sweet to each other--their relationship seems to have matured. I liked it. ;D
Edit: Hey, jpen, and thanks. I definitely agree with you on the abject cuteness of that scene between Maddie and David. I think "acceptance" is a great word for what's going on between them. They seem so comfortable together, don't they?
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Post by jpen on Feb 3, 2009 17:46:56 GMT -5
2. What do you think of Maddie’s little smile when she awakens? Contrast this look with the look she has when she enters the office after the wobblies.Great question. On a minor note, I think she would be happy because she is a creature of routine and habit, and also because she loves work (and I don't just mean her work--I mean work of any kind) and needs it to give her days meaning. Also, we have seen that she doesn't have much of a life outside the office, and really, David and the Wobblies are her extended family (though she would NEVER admit that). But the intimacy of the scene (and the WAY she smiles--almost shy or secretive), I think, suggests that the overriding thought going through her mind is that she will see David...I can imagine that, though she enjoyed her trip, it probably felt rather flat and lifeless without her sparring partner--I can just see her in New York, turning to make a comment to him, realizing he isn't there, and feeling a little empty inside. Maybe she has even been dreaming about him...OK, I feel a fanfic coming on--let me just stop right there!! On to Part 2 of this excellent question: When she enters the office, she is ready for everyone to welcome her with a rousing "Miss Hayes!" She is excited to be back, and she expects (hopes?) everyone to be excited to see her. The way she waits, looks around, and then slams the door is hilarious, but a little poignant too, particularly given the reception David gets later...and the contrast of their rah rah "Welcome Back!" speeches tells, in miniature, the whole story of their respective relationships with the employees.
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Post by jpen on Feb 3, 2009 17:56:23 GMT -5
At any rate, she's got a soft spot for the guy. Hell, she went on a vacation to New York--a place she once felt at-home in, a place that she probably associates with her modeling years, a place that's fun--and yet she still missed David. Because David's starting to feel like home to her; she's starting to depend on him.This is beautifully put and so very true, I think! This episode opens with the sense of all kinds of possibilities--not only on the part of the audience, but on the part of the characters, too! And up until David crawls off to the bathroom, I think Maddie is really seeing him with new eyes. His openness with her about his relationship with his father brings them another step closer--he admits his feelings of inadequacy, and then shares his joy at the prospect of his dad not being lonely any more--this is a HUGE step for ol' "devil-may-care" Addison. Maddie is so pleased when he asks her to go with him, too...and for once, in the car, they're having a sweet conversation, not fighting. Then they get to the party...and all heck breaks loose...
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gorky
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Post by gorky on Feb 3, 2009 17:57:15 GMT -5
Exactly, jpen--very well-said. Maddie wants the acceptance of the employees (I think she always has (remember the joke she tells in "My Fair David"?); though, like you said, she'd be loathe to admit it).
Your post also made me consider the parallels between Maddie's interaction with the rest of the employees, and Agnes's. When all the employees come flooding into the office, laughing and chattering and swapping stories, they ignore poor Agnes (just like they later ignore Maddie). My heart panged a little for her--she was trying hard to fit in, but she just couldn't quite cut it. It's the same thing with Maddie--the rest of the employees accept her as a part of the office, but not as a friend.
It's sad, in a way, but it does show why Maddie and Agnes were able to connect as friends in a way that they never could with the other Blue Moon worker bees.
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gorky
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Post by gorky on Feb 3, 2009 18:09:09 GMT -5
6. Why do you think Maddie is so curious about the woman David’s father is going to marry?I think, since David's named after his father, there's an implicit belief that the two men are alike. The mere fact that they're related indicates that they may have similar tastes. I think that Maddie is interested to see the woman David Sr.'s marrying because it will, in some way, reveal the kind of woman David Jr. would like to marry. Another off-topic observation (they're becoming my trademark, eh?)--Maddie always warmed up to David's relatives pretty quickly. She was initially attracted to Richie--and later grew to view him as a good, if not exasperating, friend--and she took an instant liking to Mr. Addison (she was so sweet with him). Maddie always treated David's family as if it was her own, as if it was a family that she could get used to seeing a lot of. I think this comfort and ease she displays in the presence of the Addison family, contributes to my feeling that David and Maddie are a true couple in this episode. I don't know if I'm making any sense, but there you have it.
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gorky
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Post by gorky on Feb 3, 2009 18:15:21 GMT -5
8. What are your thoughts as to the meaning of the title of this episode?
I think it's dirty as sin. ;D
But it sure is clever. I love all the episode titles--it seems like a lot of thought went into them. Just more proof that GGC and Co. were dedicated to making these episodes as enjoyable, thought-provoking, and multi-faceted as possible.
All while making us giggle, of course...
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Post by italianbluemooner on Feb 3, 2009 18:16:48 GMT -5
Edit: Hey, IBM! As far as homework goes, this assignment ain't so bad. See you in a bit. Ta tarattatta tattaaaa!! Hola, gringos and gringettes! Back directly from Spain (see The Sun Also Rises), here I am! Ah, grace under pressure... ;D Wow! Gotta read that book, one of these days! It's educational!! Dominatrices!!! ;D I know that assignment is not bad, gorky!! I LOVE researches!! It's just that...It's night over here!! I just needed a refill! ;D OK, I'm off to answer question #1! P.S. Tony, bro, where are thou? P.P.S Gang, please notice... JPEN'S NEW AVATAR!!!
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gorky
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Post by gorky on Feb 3, 2009 18:23:28 GMT -5
Hee... IBM, those smileys are a killer! You've got a gift, my friend. Didn't mean to put the pressure on you--if a refill's what you need to keep you this entertaining, engaging, and perceptive, then refill away! And The Sun Also Rises isn't a horrible book (I read it two or three summers ago), but it's the only Hemingway I've ever read, and I much prefer "The Son Also Rises", which I guess says something about my tastes. ;D Looking forward to hear your take on the episode, as always.
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graycav56
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I can't imagine not rewatching with you next week.
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Post by graycav56 on Feb 3, 2009 18:34:22 GMT -5
Yeeowza! You folks got an early start. I just got in from the road, so I'll grab a bite to eat, then get to rewatching! I'll join in before 8 EST!
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Post by italianbluemooner on Feb 3, 2009 18:35:53 GMT -5
1. What, if any, is the importance of showing an empty Blue Moon office and Agnes entering before everyone else on the first day back from vacation?HA! Curious question! May I answer back with a question, pleeeeesaaase? ;D Their landlord...speaks in rhyme?!?!? ;D OK, half-seriously: maybe this scene aims either at: a) letting us know that our favorite detective agency still is financially troubled; or b) telling us: YOO HOO! WOBBLIES?! We're back by popular demand!! And this year we're gonna be COOLER THAN COOL!! ;
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