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Post by beesnbears on Dec 3, 2008 0:12:31 GMT -5
"This episode depresses me to no end." ditzy The end of Eine Kleine....does it for me. The scene where David walks out of Maddie's house and then where Maddie checks into the hotel by herself.
But, tell me something. Watching them in the first scene above, do you really think they do not love each other anymore?
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Post by italianbluemooner on Dec 3, 2008 0:21:16 GMT -5
I will always feel that deep down she does have a heart of gold and is truly a genuine, likable......and lovable person.....and is capable of loving others. Her iciness and her other quirks, flaws, faults, are exactly the things that David fell in love with. IMO, of course!! Absolutely, bees! I'm fond of her too!!!!!! I've learned so much from her.......Still am!! I genuinely look up to her. I just hate the way her character was written in Season 5. I mean, she was supposed to nurture her relationship with David. David was always there for her, he loved her, took all the crap she threw at him, he even tried to change for her!! Maddie had no excuse. What's to be so uncertain of? He loves her, he told her a billion times, isn't that enough? David was ready to commit since "A Trip To The Moon", remember? Why can't SHE commit, NOW? There's no baby, no Sam, no nothing in the way!! I just can't figure it out. It makes me crazy to see her being so cold hearted toward David. He's a Golden Guy. He wants her and no one else........ And Maddie can't see any of it. I can't stand it, I'm sorry. OK, she's a sensitive, shy woman, she Avoids relationships with the big capital letter etc etc.... I can see that. But I think that once one realizes that a side of his/her personality makes his/her own life miserable, he/she should try and fix it. It's a mature thing to do. Maddie has always boasted about her being an adult, responsible woman...... Then why can't she fix it? She doesn't even try to!! Well, maybe she's not as mature as she thinks she is..... That's what bugs me. Maddie is a smart woman.... Why didn't the writers let her grow....improve her ways with men? I mean, David and Maddie are round characters, right? If so, they're supposed to learn from their mistakes.... They're expected to change with the passing of time!!! David changed........Why shouldn't Maddie change, as well? Change is the secret of life, people!!
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Post by italianbluemooner on Dec 3, 2008 0:44:04 GMT -5
"This episode depresses me to no end." ditzy The end of Eine Kleine....does it for me. The scene where David walks out of Maddie's house and then where Maddie checks into the hotel by herself. But, tell me something. Watching them in the first scene above, do you really think they do not love each other anymore? For me too, bees. I think WGC is better than Eine Kleine... About your question: Au contraire!!! Definitely there's something going on in the scene where David walks out!! Maddie CLEARLY realizes she still loves him and wants him back in her life again. Just look at her watch him go away... As far as David goes....He was frightened by the mere idea Maddie could get hurt... I believe that life-threatening circumstances can reconcile people. So that's what I think is going on there: David found out Maddie's life was in danger, and subconsciously realized how much he still loved her. That's why he kisses her and gazes at her.... If David were not "in care" with her anymore, he would not do it...IMO. Boy, LE could've been GREAT, if only.... I'd keep on posting all day long about this........... Well, I think I'll save it for the future... Goodnight ladies! I guess I'll see you tomorrow! Hope our little chat was therapeutical... Sleep tight. Don't let the bed bugs bite.
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Post by italianbluemooner on Dec 3, 2008 8:39:48 GMT -5
Finally, I like the assertion that this scene could have been a turning point for David and Maddie if it had gone another way. I hadn't thought of that before. Fanfiction, anyone?? Don't tempt me, ditzy.............
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Post by jpen on Dec 3, 2008 12:18:11 GMT -5
Wow...amazing posts, everybody! Sorry I had to cut out early...just wanted to add a few thoughts: On question 4: I have to agree that Maddie has wasted opportunity after opportunity to recharge and renew her relationship with David, and in that sense, she has brought this situation (i.e. David moving on) on herself. Her scene with Agnes is telling: Agnes: I've been sitting at that desk, most of my adult life, watching you two "interact," and I don't think Mr. Addison is interested in Annie. It's just his way of staying involved with you. Maddie: I don't want him involved with me. A: Do you really believe that? M: I don't care what his motives are, Agnes, I just know it isn't right! If you take Agnes as the "oracle," the voice of wisdom, as she so often has been, this is another instance of Maddie's missing the boat--first, she denies that she wants David, and then she AVOIDS THE QUESTION when Agnes presses her. Sometimes I just want to shake her...don't get me wrong, she's an amazing character, but for Pete's sake, will someone save the woman from herself?!?!
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Post by jpen on Dec 3, 2008 12:20:03 GMT -5
Anyhow, to answer question 5, I refer to a post I put in another thread: "The gender swap of the last scene in which Maddie breaks in and falls asleep in David's bed instead of the other way around I thought was interesting. OK, Maddie shows up but for what? To finally confront David in a manner similar to what Dave did earlier? To declare herself a player in the Addison Sweepstakes? Not really. She just wanted him to lay off her married cousin. David was beyond hearing more Maddie preaching long before this scene." I thought this scene COULD have rekindled the romance. This COULD have been a good knock down, drag out between D&M that would have showed them what REAL love was, versus the infatuation with Annie. Alas, it was not to be. Hear, hear, graycav! Right on the money...woulda, coulda, shoulda...
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Post by jpen on Dec 3, 2008 12:23:32 GMT -5
On the "disjointed" comment made by graycav...I took a look at "Perfetc" last night and I agree absolutely. David's invitation ("You are comin' with me, aren't you?) is clearly an overture, and Maddie's reaction is...Wow! No hesitation, no prevarication, no "You & me in Paris? Do you really think that's a good idea?"--she literally jumps at the opportunity ("I've gotta go pack!").
I am really looking forward to Diane's notes on this...hopefully it will explain the drastic left-turn that they took here.
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Post by jpen on Dec 3, 2008 12:34:12 GMT -5
Sorry for the multiple posts...keep thinking of "just one more thing!"... I am frustrated with Maddie here, but there's another aspect (besides D&A) of this episode that breaks my heart a little on her behalf--she's portrayed as old, fuddy-duddy (is that even still a word? Now I look old), and no fun. This characterization is not only perpetrated by David, IMO, it's also in the cinematography: 1. Beginning scene in her therapist's office: I don't know if it's the lighting, or the camera angle, or what, but she looks...a lot older. I don't mean this to be catty at all--Cybill was then and still is gorgeous--but you can see the lines on her face, and she looks washed out and not happy, in spite of her "celebratory" stance. Meanwhile, David looks terrific, sexy and "red-blooded" in his all-black getup, even when he does the "walk of shame" through the office. And Annie is fresh-faced and dewy... 2. Maddie falls asleep in the car; David calls her "old-timer" as they're walking in 3. David and Annie giggle and shush each other as they sneak out, as if to say, "Don't wake the old battle-axe"; Maddie sleeps while they play 4. David's aforementioned comments about Maddie to Annie in the car--she's no fun, etc. Love to hear other's thoughts on this... And, ok, I'm done. Here you go...(hands virtual shots of mouthwash to everyone)....swish...swish...gargle...spit...Aaah, that's better! ;D I'm headed over to read some Virtual Moonlighting--balm to the soul of poor weary ML-lovers...have a great day, everyone!
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Post by italianbluemooner on Dec 3, 2008 16:45:54 GMT -5
Sorry for the multiple posts...keep thinking of "just one more thing!"... I am frustrated with Maddie here, but there's another aspect (besides D&A) of this episode that breaks my heart a little on her behalf--she's portrayed as old, fuddy-duddy (is that even still a word? Now I look old), and no fun. This characterization is not only perpetrated by David, IMO, it's also in the cinematography: 1. Beginning scene in her therapist's office: I don't know if it's the lighting, or the camera angle, or what, but she looks...a lot older. I don't mean this to be catty at all--Cybill was then and still is gorgeous--but you can see the lines on her face, and she looks washed out and not happy, in spite of her "celebratory" stance. Meanwhile, David looks terrific, sexy and "red-blooded" in his all-black getup, even when he does the "walk of shame" through the office. And Annie is fresh-faced and dewy... 2. Maddie falls asleep in the car; David calls her "old-timer" as they're walking in 3. David and Annie giggle and shush each other as they sneak out, as if to say, "Don't wake the old battle-axe"; Maddie sleeps while they play 4. David's aforementioned comments about Maddie to Annie in the car--she's no fun, etc. Love to hear other's thoughts on this... And, ok, I'm done. Here you go...(hands virtual shots of mouthwash to everyone)....swish...swish...gargle...spit...Aaah, that's better! ;D I'm headed over to read some Virtual Moonlighting--balm to the soul of poor weary ML-lovers...have a great day, everyone! Hey jpen! We missed you last night! Very sharp observations!! 1. You're right. I noticed that too... Although I don't know whether the above-mentioned effect was wilful....If so, that is, if her look was meant to magnify the intensity of her words... The director deserves extra credit! And yes, Cybill was/is gorgeous! ;D About David: About A***e (sorry, I can't write her name yet! ): she looks like a babe as compared with Maddie... Hell, *A* seems her niece, not her cousin. Again, I don't know whether they made it on purpose........ 3. There is where you can see the complicity between David and *A*... Something we never saw between D&M ......... I mean, there was Chemistry, not complicity. David is experiencing something new with *A*.... He's at ease with her...... That scene really hurt! I mean, all that pulling Maddie's leg about her style...... It's not very nice. At all. It's a cheap shot. P.S. "Fuddy-duddy".... LOL!!!! ;D
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Post by beesnbears on Dec 3, 2008 16:55:14 GMT -5
Fuddy-duddy!! ;D I still use that word!
I think Maddie's appearance was partly on purpose, but also it is close to the turn of the decade and Maddie is sporting the 90's look.
I always wanted hair like her..........she is gorgeous!
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Post by diane on Dec 3, 2008 21:34:40 GMT -5
Ok...I just got to finish rewatching......these are my answers. I haven't read everybody else's discussion yet, so I apologize if I am repeating anything.
Here goes:
1. How do you feel about the appearance of Demi Moore in this episode. Was it just an attention grabbing device to show off the star's significant other...or was it really planned to set the mood for the episode? I think for the most part it was gratuitous, a ploy to get some extra viewers to tune in. But then I listened to the lyrics of the song.....
Now the party's over I'm so tired. Then I see you coming out of nowhere. Much communication in a motion Without conversation or a notion. Avalon
So I think there was also an intent on the part of the writers to convey that David is looking to move on....something I never really thought about before.
2. Do you think, if Maddie had been a little more receptive to David when they were dancing, that he would even have looked at Annie twice? Looking at it honestly, the banter between them on the dance floor is more friends than lovers. But I think David was walking cautiously , and leaving some openings for Maddie to say how she really felt. But when he is constantly rebuffed...well, what's a guy to do? I did pay a little bit more attention this time to Maddie's reaction to the romantic couple.....and her comment, " I envy that", and David's response, "I know you do". Why the heck, at that moment, did Bert need to interrupt??? That was a perfect place for them to get honest with each other!
I have always felt that after that interruption, when David couldn't steer the situation his way, he then decided to make a play for Annie to make Maddie jealous. You can't deny, there was chemistry between them on the dance floor and later, so it made it easy for David to do. And there are many instances of Maddie appearing to be jealous throughout the episode, so clearly it worked.
3. The BIG question -- who is the villain here.....David or Annie? Why? Can I vote for co-villains? I have always tried to give Annie the benefit of the doubt, but when I rewatched, I found some things that I really disliked about her. She badmouthed everyone who loved her........her husband, Maddie. She badmouthed her life in Connecticut. She sounded like a bored little girl looking for some fun. And although she expresses concern several times about how the whole thing will affect Maddie she goes ahead anyway. Seems like pretty bad treatment from a cousin, roommate, and supposed friend. I think that Annie wanted a little escape from her life, and welcomed David's comments about LA...."You can reinvent yourself here."
David set out to deliberately make Maddie jealous. He had to know he would hurt her, and was mean and unfeeling. Almost every interchange between them starts out with Maddie trying to have a logical and/or sympathetic conversation with him, to which he responds by being nasty, or mean...like a petulant child. Almost every interchange between them is mean and nasty, with David by far getting in the worst digs.
I was especially struck by all the images of childhood...........everything David and Annie seem to share seem like things that kids will do......ice cream, balloon animals, going "parking".......I think the whole thing seemed like just a lark to the both of them......fun with no responsibility, and no care about who gets hurt.
4. Does anyone think Maddie brought the whole situation on herself? The whole situation....no. But Maddie's inability to know herself and to admit her real feelings is a huge part of this mess.
5. Why does David find Maddie sitting in his bed? Would the conversation have been different if David hadn't been so hostile?
Oh this is so horrible to watch. I really do believe that Maddie did rehearse in the car, and had a plan to tell David that she really did still love him. But when David started being mean and hostile, she got mixed up, and then, as always happens in their relationship, she got mad, and the insults started flying. Please....just give me 5 minutes to rewrite this scene!!!
I still think this is the worst, most evil episode. David is so un-Davidlike in this episode, I could just scream. He would never just blow off being with a married woman. He would never be as mean as he was....no matter what. We all know that he has suffered greatly at the hands of Maddie, and still he kept on trying......I can't believe he would have done a total 360 and changed this drastically.
This is the beginning of the end...and it is so sad.....there are at least three different places in this episode that the whole thing could have turned around. Damned writers!
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Post by diane on Dec 3, 2008 22:12:57 GMT -5
3. The BIG question -- who is the villain here.....David or Annie? Why?Four words,troops: love at first sight. I mean, it all starts at the office. Look at David's face when he pops in Maddie's office.......... He's intrigued. And A***e looks the same way. Sometimes love is a chemical reaction..... Put 1 close to 2.... and 3 happens. Don't get me wrong, I'm not justifying David, I'm just saying that every now and then things just happen. For no reason. All of a sudden. Spontaneously. BUT, speaking of the episode.... 1)At the office After lunch....David starts hitting on *A* already!! And what's Maddie's reaction? "Yes, she's a sweetheart". WHAT? ? Are you blind, Maddie??? Don't you see what's going on??? OK, let's forgive her: she's drunk. I've gotta say, I totally disagree with you on this. There is no doubt in my mind that David is NOT in love with Annie, and has never been. A chemical reaction...yes......a fun playmate...assuredly yes....but I can't believe love. We all know David in love, and if he had been in love with Annie, there is no way he could have done the honorable thing, and sent her scurrying back to hubby. (I know i am skipping ahead episodes, but it's the only way I can complete my explanation!)
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Post by diane on Dec 3, 2008 22:16:22 GMT -5
Anyhow, to answer question 5, I refer to a post I put in another thread: "The gender swap of the last scene in which Maddie breaks in and falls asleep in David's bed instead of the other way around I thought was interesting. OK, Maddie shows up but for what? To finally confront David in a manner similar to what Dave did earlier? To declare herself a player in the Addison Sweepstakes? Not really. She just wanted him to lay off her married cousin. David was beyond hearing more Maddie preaching long before this scene." I thought this scene COULD have rekindled the romance. This COULD have been a good knock down, drag out between D&M that would have showed them what REAL love was, versus the infatuation with Annie. Alas, it was not to be.
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Post by diane on Dec 3, 2008 22:18:48 GMT -5
Ooops...see the post above for this to make sense!!!
Great point about the gender swap!!! I think though that Maddie had a little more to say that went out of her head when the mean words started flying.
And what a dream that this could have been a reenactment of the knock down drag out in "I Am Curious, Maddie".......I am drooling just thinking about it!
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Post by diane on Dec 3, 2008 22:26:02 GMT -5
here's my last comment.........
ANNIE, ANNIE, ANNIE.........c'mon folks, be brave....you can say it!
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