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Post by beesnbears on Dec 3, 2008 22:44:57 GMT -5
"I was especially struck by all the images of childhood...........everything David and Annie seem to share seem like things that kids will do......ice cream, balloon animals, going "parking".......I think the whole thing seemed like just a lark to the both of them......fun with no responsibility, and no care about who gets hurt." diane
Never thought of it like that! Kind of like 2 adults that have not grown up....
"I really do believe that Maddie did rehearse in the car, and had a plan to tell David that she really did still love him." diane
Me too. She became intimidated and in turn became angry.
"Please....just give me 5 minutes to rewrite this scene!!!" diane
Take 2 five minutes....their small!! I would LOVE to see this!!
annieannieannieannieanniegoawayannieannieannieannieannie
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Post by rose35 on Dec 4, 2008 0:11:37 GMT -5
Howdy all! As always i'm late to the game but i did make it! As always what a stimulating discussion we are having with this wonderful (NOT) episode. To date this episode has the most replies since we started Rewatching HMMM wonder why? You all have really said everything possible about it and sure open my eyes to so many things and ways to view this episode. This is the episode where it could have turned around if it was done the right way. This is where it all goes horribly, terribly wrong, with still 3 episodes to go after this it could have beeen fixed even after this whole episode happened. Well anyway...... 1. How do you feel about the appearance of Demi Moore in this episode. Was it just an attention grabbing device to show off the star's significant other...or was it really planned to set the mood for the episode? * For me i so didnt like the DM thing, one she was put in this episode because wof who she was, yes i never thought about how it symbolizes David moving on to being what he was before Maddie,someone out for a good time with a lady. Definitely a step backwards for the character, hey this guy isnt 20 anymore. Grow up Dave!. I understand he feels the need to move on since Maddie aint playing house with him. So of course A...ie had to witness all of it too right? UGH! 2. Do you think, if Maddie had been a little more receptive to David when they were dancing, that he would even have looked at Annie twice? * I do think he was kinda feeling her out , was it because he wanted to make moves on A..ie? So he figured lets give it one more try and if nothing hey i see sdome fine looking woman over there giving me the eye maybe. I always love to see them dance together, true this wasnt all lovey dovey but it was nice to see them dancing close. The conversation is weird. David asks if shes happy? And she says she is? I dont think they are bioth truly happy, i mean she lost a baby how long ago? Then she mentions she envys the couple kissing? Umm hello there is a fine looking,available man who can kiss right in front of you!!!!!!!!! LOL And of course Viola steps in and them it's off to A..ie land for Daid UGHHHHHHHHHH 3. The BIG question -- who is the villain here.....David or A nnie? Why? * For me BOTH!. It takes 2 to tango people! They each played a part in this, both were aware of who each other was to Maddie, Well now i wonder, A...ie must know that maddie was pregnant and David was maybe a the father right? i mean it's not told thats the case but dont cousins usually know things. It also is kinda like one of those codes you say between sisters, Best friends ETC, i wont date your ex kinda thing right? This should have been one of those bells going off in their heads. like this is a no crossing the line territory for D/A due to Maddie. Do i make any sense? Well i think they were cruel to maddie by doing this to her. They were like catty teenagers whose hormones got the best of them. This was not LOVE here, it was LUST! JMO of course And forgive me but i keep going back to Maddie losing a child not too long ago. How can a man like David forget that and be so mean to her? I mean i know maddie did alot of bad things too. Oh god my poor head! LOL 4. Does anyone think Maddie brought the whole situation on herself? * yes poor dear maddie did play a part in this by playing games with David, the few kisses in season 5, the flirting and then nothing? Shes talking down to him like she just met him. But you do think they were friends during season 5 till this episode, Then Maddie calls them enemies? UMMM what the heck is that all about? Were they ever considered enemies during the previous episodes? UMM NO! Ok so angry now! LOL 5. Why does David find Maddie sitting in his bed? Would the conversation have been different if David hadn't been so hostile? * Like some of the others have said here this could have been great done differently. Maddie making herself comfortable in Davids bed right off to just yell at him is alittle weird. She could have stood outside his door or sat in his living room on the floor maybe but hmm lets go into Davids bedroom and lay on his bed where we spent some time together. This could have been IACM from the other way around. She should have said I dont like this A;;ie thing cause i still love you and hoped we could eventually work it out but NO! Then David is like get out of my bed BLAH BLAH BLAH! ARRRGGHGHHHH! then he follows A...ie out of his room like he's known her forever. umm what is this like a day or 2 gone by? Ok i so HATE this episode! I so want someone to write some more FanFIc please! Like NOW! LOL
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Post by jpen on Dec 4, 2008 1:29:37 GMT -5
Please....just give me 5 minutes to rewrite this scene!!! I still think this is the worst, most evil episode. David is so un-Davidlike in this episode, I could just scream. He would never just blow off being with a married woman. He would never be as mean as he was....no matter what. We all know that he has suffered greatly at the hands of Maddie, and still he kept on trying......I can't believe he would have done a total 360 and changed this drastically. This is the beginning of the end...and it is so sad.....there are at least three different places in this episode that the whole thing could have turned around. Damned writers! Hear, hear! On this point, I was just curious...Diane, do you know whether GGC had any input at this point, or did the direction of the show rest solely with the remaining writers/producers?
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Post by diane on Dec 4, 2008 2:30:48 GMT -5
Jen,
I actually remember asking Glenn a very similar question when Cindy and I had the chance to interview him. I am not sure his response made it into the final posted interview, and I would only be paraphrasing...but the jist of his response was that he was not involved at all in season 5 after Womb, and had no input or recollection of the season in general. I do know however, that there were many rumors that GGC did correspond with the writers on a semi-regular basis, and that he probably had some input at the very least on Lunar Eclipse.
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Post by marple on Dec 4, 2008 2:39:09 GMT -5
diane Thank you so much for the excellent answers! As this episode deceives and tortures us too much, every time I try to figure it out, Ifm depressed and tangled. Now I feel much better and my confusionfs almost cleared. And yelling, GO! MADDIE, GO!
Thank you, everyone for the stimulative discussion! You guysf opinions really intrigued and thrilled me. Looking forward to seeing you all the next.
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Post by italianbluemooner on Dec 4, 2008 7:57:58 GMT -5
3. The BIG question -- who is the villain here.....David or Annie? Why?Four words,troops: love at first sight. I mean, it all starts at the office. Look at David's face when he pops in Maddie's office.......... He's intrigued. And A***e looks the same way. Sometimes love is a chemical reaction..... Put 1 close to 2.... and 3 happens. Don't get me wrong, I'm not justifying David, I'm just saying that every now and then things just happen. For no reason. All of a sudden. Spontaneously. BUT, speaking of the episode.... 1)At the office After lunch....David starts hitting on *A* already!! And what's Maddie's reaction? "Yes, she's a sweetheart". WHAT? ? Are you blind, Maddie??? Don't you see what's going on??? OK, let's forgive her: she's drunk. I've gotta say, I totally disagree with you on this. There is no doubt in my mind that David is NOT in love with Annie, and has never been. A chemical reaction...yes......a fun playmate...assuredly yes....but I can't believe love. We all know David in love, and if he had been in love with Annie, there is no way he could have done the honorable thing, and sent her scurrying back to hubby. (I know i am skipping ahead episodes, but it's the only way I can complete my explanation!) I never thought David was in love with A***e!!!!!!!!!! Annie, I mean (God that was hard to do!! )..... As I stated in the following posts, I believe it was just a fling based on mutual sexual attraction..... They had a lot in common (as you said, *A* needed to reinvent herself, David did the same thing in the past.... *A* was dissatisfied with her marriage, while things were getting dull between David & Maddie... etc. etc.), both were interested........ Therefore, it happened. But Love (with the capital letter)........That's a different kettle of fish. That's what David and Maddie share... Love is serious, deep (not skin deep), sincere.... Eternal.
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Post by beesnbears on Dec 4, 2008 10:49:25 GMT -5
Okay, I have another question. What does everyone think about the airline tickets David gave Maddie? Also, since diane brought up music lyrics again.....I love to analyze lyrics, in case you have not noticed .....I am reminded of a song we have talked about before on another thread which is "Music That Makes Me Dance". I add two and two, the most simple addition, Then swear that the figures are lying, I'm a much better comic than mathematician 'Cause I'm better on stage than at intermission, And as far as the man is concerned, If I've been burned, I haven't learned I know he's around when the sky and the ground start in ringing, I know that he's near by the thunder I hear in advance, His words--his words alone--are the words that can start my heart singing, And his is the only music that makes me dance. He'll sleep and he'll rise, in the light of two eyes that adore him. Bore him it might, but he won't leave my sight for a glance. In ev'ry way, ev'ry day, I need less of myself and need more him--more him, 'Cause his is the only music that makes me dance, 'Cause his is the only music that makes me dance.
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Post by manitobadesigner on Dec 4, 2008 13:33:31 GMT -5
Jen, I actually remember asking Glenn a very similar question when Cindy and I had the chance to interview him. I am not sure his response made it into the final posted interview, and I would only be paraphrasing...but the jist of his response was that he was not involved at all in season 5 after Womb, and had no input or recollection of the season in general. I do know however, that there were many rumors that GGC did correspond with the writers on a semi-regular basis, and that he probably had some input at the very least on Lunar Eclipse. I have been wondering about this myself for... oh say 20 years. Thanks Diane for the info! I always had a hard time with the characterizations in season 5, I felt like I didn't know them anymore.
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Post by rose35 on Dec 4, 2008 18:16:24 GMT -5
Okay, I have another question. What does everyone think about the airline tickets David gave Maddie? *Well doesnt this happen in EKNM? I'm not sure though. Maybe so she didnt have to watch D/A , or to test Maddie maybe to see if she'd go and then it would show she didnt care about David. Was it a dig to her to be like well if you cant deal with things do what you did before to me , go run to Mommy and Daddy? Then she tells him to take Annie away, was that to test him? M/D should have gone away together!!!!!!!!!
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Post by beesnbears on Dec 4, 2008 20:26:12 GMT -5
MY BAD!!! When it comes to this point in their relationship it all starts to run together!!! But, I agree with rose. I think he partly gave the tickets because he felt guilty about Annie, but mostly it was a mean dig at her leaving for Chicago when things got where she could not face them last time.
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Post by MoonBeemer on Dec 6, 2008 15:38:25 GMT -5
In the interest of full disclosure, I confess to having seen this episode only twice (once in 1989 and once earlier this year), which is already two times too many by my calculations. So, it is with several deep, calming, cleansing breathes that I offer up the few. distant impressions of this episode that have yet to be purged from the ole noggin. Q#1 (Appearance of Demi Moore): I'm fascinated reading the varying responses to this one as I was fairly young when this first aired and, not one to pay much attention to the goings on in Hollywood, I don’t think I originally even knew it was her back in the day and, honestly, it took me a minute to place her in even the more recent viewing. While I’m sure the fact that she was Bruce’s wife/the celebrity factor played into the cameo, I was more struck by David’s prolonged exchange with this woman: Granted, he was never shy about hiding his appreciation & admiration for physical beauty, but it was usually a passing thing with no emotional connection, while this seemed somehow more serious and to signal a change in his character. My initial thought was that something must have gone dreadfully wrong in Paris for him to now be making such a play. Q#2: If Maddie had shown even the slightest romantic interest in David, then he wouldn’t have shown the slightest romantic interest in anyone other than her, period. I’m still not convinced that his interest in Annie had nothing to do with getting to Maddie – with over four billion people in the world, half of em’ built, it’s no coincidence that he choose Maddie’s married cousin to fornicate with.
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Post by MoonBeemer on Dec 6, 2008 15:57:03 GMT -5
Q#s 3-5: Not sure I’d classify anyone as entirely a villain or victim here. The whole torrid David/Annie affair was ill-conceived, ill-timed, ill-advised and ill-making! It seemed tawdry and as if both D&A were violating Maddie with it - he seemed outright vengeful at times while she had a certain smug one-upmanship with Maddie about it. Will say that Annie appreciated a side of David that Maddie never fully allowed herself to – and that was important to him. However, for every bit she appealed to him, she turned me off from the get-go. First, she disregards her marriage and moves in on her cousin friend’s partner without granting him courtesy of first making him aware of the infidelity transgression. And even if it truly were over between Maddie & David, (for it is plain to any fool that it is not, despite their thick skulls and declarations to the contrary), can we say “tacky?” Plus, she was always in David’s space – if we’re looking for a prime example of someone (however invited they may feel) selfishly and prematurely imposing themself in the life of another who is suspected of having feelings for yet a third party, that’s what the Sam trilogy’s for!
Moving on, overall bittersweet about David here. He seemed both familiar and different to me all at once. It was good to see some of his trademark non-conformity and edginess restored, but not at the expense of undermining his character, Maddie, their relationship and the entire series in the process (don’t even get me started on the inconsistency presented in his complacency in being ‘the other man!’). In some ways, I think his relationship with Annie is analogous to Maddie’s marriage to Walter: Convenient, unconditional, non-combative, mediocre, as much about an outside party as the two people involved, and destined to fail. While I think there was a physical attraction between he & Annie and the two seemed to have developed genuine feelings for each other (or at least what the other represented) by the finale, I just didn’t see the chemistry between the two that he had once shared with Maddie and I think, in the long-run, that David requires that kind of energy and challenge (however exhausting it may be) to feel fulfilled. I was also left wondering if David could have ever orchestrated the departure of Maddie from his life as he did with Annie. Then again, if Maddie had been Annie in the same situation, there would never have been the same situation as their relationship never would have existed under those circumstances – they’re two entirely different classes of women and relationships.
As for Maddie, those who talked to the apparent aging of the character and her tendency to take David for granted were right on target. Perhaps here more than any other episode, we see the detached, indifferent, watered-down, doormat version of Maddie that’s been occurring throughout this season (and as early as the 3rd). Oh how I miss the spirited Blondie-Blonde of season two who would not have stood by and let things unfold as they did the last couple seasons (and I’d gander David does as well)! While David is culpable for his actions & decisions, many of them are correlated to Maddie’s…she has long insisted on keeping their bed made and now she is literally lying in it…alone.
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Post by MoonBeemer on Dec 6, 2008 16:33:49 GMT -5
"I was especially struck by all the images of childhood...........everything David and Annie seem to share seem like things that kids will do......ice cream, balloon animals, going "parking".......I think the whole thing seemed like just a lark to the both of them......fun with no responsibility, and no care about who gets hurt." dianeNever thought of it like that! Kind of like 2 adults that have not grown up.... Me neither...and what a brillant observation! Conversely, Maddie was mothering and judgemental with David...and we already saw how much he resented that approach through his relationship with his father.
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Post by jpen on Dec 6, 2008 17:41:35 GMT -5
Q#s 3-5: The whole torrid David/Annie affair was ill-conceived, ill-timed, ill-advised and ill-making! It seemed tawdry and as if both D&A were violating Maddie with it - he seemed outright vengeful at times while she had a certain smug one-upmanship with Maddie about it. Will say that Annie appreciated a side of David that Maddie never fully allowed herself to – and that was important to him. However, for every bit she appealed to him, she turned me off from the get-go. While David is culpable for his actions & decisions, many of them are correlated to Maddie’s…she has long insisted on keeping their bed made and now she is literally lying in it…alone. Great observations, MoonBeemer--particularly about the "one-upmanship." I hadn't really thought about it from that perspective--i.e., that she sees David as a trophy in her competition with Maddie, but it makes sense. Remember her comment at lunch?: "I had forgotten what it was like to go out in public with the 'Blue Moon Girl'." If she was really just looking for a "bit of fun on the side," surely she could have found someone else. Lovely--yet another reason to dislike and despise her!
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graycav56
3rd Level
I can't imagine not rewatching with you next week.
Posts: 948
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Post by graycav56 on Dec 6, 2008 20:46:39 GMT -5
I'd like to throw my two cents in (again) on the Cybill looking "aged" in this episode.
I do agree that she is not the hot babe of Seasons 1-3, and not even as neat looking as in Color of Maddie. It just seems that the lighting, makeup, dialogue, whatever, really makes her appear and act tired in so many scenes.
Of course, her foil is MUCH younger in actual age...even though the writing leads you to believe that they were somewhat close in that matter. Cybill as we all know was born in 1950 and Virginia was born on September 11th 1961. Over 11 years is a big difference for even the most beautiful women...of which Cybill CERTAINLY qualifies to this day.
Separate point: Moonbeamer: Great Posts! Welcome to the game.
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